Part 1. Why I’m Quitting
I’m done with scamblogging. It’s not working. And I don’t think it’s the fault of the scambloggers, because some of us have worked hard. It’s everyone else.
Yes, I’m looking at you.
You are not putting any effort into this. Scamblogging will never work if the readers just sit there and have a “meh” reaction to everything we do. From the very start of this blog, all those months ago, there have been so many opportunities to contribute, so many good projects for activism suggested, yet so much utter lethargy and disinterest from everyone involved that it’s been embarrassing. We tried stickers on books, so easy but ignored. We tried getting together and organizing a presence at LSAT tests or law schools, and that was so easy but ignored. We tried fliers, again so easy but ignored. We tried promoting Con Law, so easy and ignored. Someone had the bright idea of renting a billboard, funding the project via Kickstarter, which was hands down the best idea ever suggested here. But that too was ignored.
And we've tried asking you all time and time again what exactly you would do to help, and we get nothing. Because deep down, that's what you want to do - nothing.
I’m tired of preaching to an audience who doesn’t have the decency to bother lifting a finger to do anything to help. You’ve consistently demonstrated that you’re some of the laziest people ever encountered. You want everyone else to do the hard work for you, and you even want someone else to do the easy work for you. You want solutions handed to you on a plate. You want reform without actually helping. Well, I’m not playing that shitty little game anymore. You want change? Get it yourself because I’m done wasting my time trying to get it for you.
If even some of the thousands of readers had even shown a little interest in doing something to help themselves, I’d be happy. But nobody gives a fuck to be honest. You all want me and Adam and Dybbuk and RAB to do the heavy lifting on your behalf, and when we suggest things for you to help with, you turn and walk away.
You are a lazy, entitled, foolish group. If this lethargy and feebleness is how you’ve been looking for work and trying to pay your loans off, no wonder you’re in the mess you’re in. You're making everyone look like losers.
And most of the writers here are no different. We have what, fourteen? Adam works his ass off. Dybbuk works his ass off. RAB works his ass off. There’s a couple (including me) who do what we can, when we can, and then there’s the ten others who literally posted one thing and then disappeared. Even the majority of the writers can’t be bothered!
So I quit. I’m not spending my time on this issue anymore. Fuck, it doesn’t even affect me. I don’t care how many new lawyers come into the market and fail because it's their loss, not mine. I don’t care how much law school costs because I’m not paying those bills. If people want to go to law school, who cares? Not me anymore, because almost without exception the victims - you - are people who are too lazy to even bother trying to resolve their own problems.
We are facilitators of change, not Messiahs or super heroes. We needed you to help and to be the worker ants who could assist with tiny pieces of the solution. You couldn’t even be bothered to do that.
So do your own work. I'm tired of doing it for such an ungrateful, unmotivated bunch of self-inflicted failures.
Part 2. Why We All Should Quit
I’m not done with activism or writing. I’m going to put my efforts now into something that directly affects me, which is student loan relief. Fuck law school. Nobody else gives a damn about it judging by your lack of interest, so neither do I. I’m going to be selfish and pick an issue that directly will help me instead.
Student loans. That’s where the change will come from. Trying to close law schools or fire professors or change the curriculum, that’s all window dressing. It’s pointless. We all need to quit this retarded scamblogging and let the schools bloat and gorge and inflate, and then they will burst.
All we’re doing with scamblogging is putting law schools on a diet. They will plateau and continue to exist. If you want to cause damage to the law schools, let them go wild. Let them have all the students they want and all the debt they want and flood the market, and let the legal profession churn these graduates up and treat them like animals and let the entire system collapse under the weight of its own greed. You'll have massive support from the public for that because people hate lawyers.
That’s the second reason I’m done with scamblogging. I think that at this point, the legal education complex and the legal profession just needs to be free to destroy itself. Scamblogging is slowing that. I want to see the entire disgusting system spectacularly collapse, not just be nipped at by scamblogging. And it will do that if we leave it alone and let it get so big and so disgusting and vile and obese that it just falls to pieces. I want to see hundreds of thousands of unemployed law grads lowering the hourly rates and fighting for business and backstabbing and failing. I want to see millions of lawyers’ practices destroyed by a few greedy lawyers who outsource jobs and work at Schpoonkle and set up automated doc review companies and internet sites where you can get a will written for $5 and a divorce for $10. I want to see biglaw firms collapse. I want to see courthouses full of scum unemployed lawyers clawing for scraps.
Because that is what will drive people away from law schools and make people sit up and listen. Not the bullshit on this blog where people can’t even be bothered to write comments half the time or lift a finger to help themselves. This blog has warned nobody away from law school.
So that’s why I am done with scamblogging. It is slowing the inevitable destruction of the profession (and most of the time it doesn't even do that because people ignore it). And it’s not addressing the real issue, which is student loan reform.
My thanks go out to Adam, Dybbuk and RAB and OTLSS for the work that they are doing. Everyone else – you've had so many chances, and I'm not giving you another.
Well....okey dokey then. Sorry if you have a bug up your butt today. Hopefully, tomorrow you'll feel better and be ready to fight the good fight. You actually brought up something that I had though about doing recently, particularly as law school season is about to begin. I was thinking of going to a few law schools in my area in or around orientation and carrying a placard spouting off all sorts of gloom and doom to the future law graduates. If everyone did this, a lot more people would drop out - despite all the self-interested profs and deans who would undoubtedly tell the newbies to ignore those "losers" - a return to the good ol' days is just around the corner.
ReplyDeleteNo bug, just done. Tomorrow, I will feel better because I'll be starting work towards student loan reform.
DeleteThere is no good fight here. It's a bad fight. Let the system destroy itself. Focus on something more important that actually helps everyone. Student loan reform. Law school reform is just a waste of time. Even reformed law school is a shitty goal.
Good luck with the placard. I'll believe it when I see a picture of it, because it's like every other idea on this site - interesting to think about, but nobody has got your back and will run and hide as soon as you dare suggest doing anything.
Adjunct -
DeleteYour post is serious, and here's one voice, at least, in support. What follows is for the lurkers as much as for you. With that in mind . . . here goes:
I suspect there are numerous psychological factors underlying a lack of action. Among these is denial. Most students want . . . need . . . to believe, even and perhaps especially after they have been conned. To be conned is a cut deeper than a mere attack, because it is a recognition that we are complicit in our injury.
There is laziness, to be sure, but there is also fear (else why all the anonymity?), disdain (including self-pity and -loathing), apathy, and helplessness. To be clear, these injuries are real, and those injured have a right to be angry. But against whom? We can blame professors, deans, schools, and so on. But the blame should go deeper.
I am in an odd position, here, as I am long past all of this. I've had the fancy office, and the new office, and the other careers. My debt was $30,000 (for three degrees!), which I paid. So, to me, this should add to, not subtract from, the points that Cooper and I make, or perhaps collect, in Con Law.
The danger of "letting it collapse" is broader. First, the powers won't let that happen. Law school is a massive cash cow. Student loans are akin to Social Security in being a third rail. Despite the reality that loans and grants are part of the problem, not a solution, a society that all but demands everyone goes to college is bound to eat its own. They will destroy a generation rather than admit being wrong. Pawns, indeed.
Second, let's suppose it does collapse. Let's suppose that the public, appalled at what they see and with heaping reservoirs of distrust and dislike of lawyers, pile on. What then?
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
Yes? What few realize is that those words are the biggest compliment to law, and, indirectly, to lawyers. They were spoken by one Dick the Butcher, a would-be King.
What should happen is that the bottom two tiers (numbers 101-200) disappear. This shall not happen, for a number of reasons. What then? Limit enrollment? Any solution will create problems that are anathema to one (very) powerful side (a side many of us are nominally on), and especially to the highly political ABA.
There is no good news in this fight. There might, might be only non-bad outcomes for individuals.
What is frustrating is the sense of fighting not just the system, but also people themselves, akin to the fictional Leo in The Matrix. Most future law students do not want to be freed. They want lies. And, of course, they believe they are the special snowflake. The fact that there are indeed still winners--even if only a few--feeds this. In fact, it makes it worse, just as in Vegas.
For all, whether you've been scammed or whether you're not sure, consider that there might be something to the passion here. No one wants to say that anyone who has already graduated and amassed debt is sunk. We need solutions for this group, to be sure.
For another group, what we can do is to counter the incessantly positive messages that feed the ego of the future snowflake. (What's worse is not just the postive message, as we all want to be positive, but that combined with laziness, a la "Get drunk this summer! Your profs will take care of you!!!"
Every prospective law student should read Con Law, as well as the books by Campos, Tamanaha, and Harper. Goodness, read just one! If you think we're making this up, read another. And another.
Any student not dissuaded should read ALL of the books for prelaw students. Decide for yourself. But don't look back, angry that there weren't those trying to tell you. And if you read "Don't worry, be happy" books . . . and *only* those books, well, fate, and heat, are not kind to snowflakes.
To Adjunct, please do stay, even if occasionally. Your voice is needed, even if not always appreciated.
Thane.
yawn
ReplyDeleteHey, THANK you, you finally get it! They ARE lazy, and they DO deserve their debts.
DeleteBeing lazy and avoiding work should NOT = $$$!
I was actually thinking today that maybe we should promote a White House petition to cap student loans at a 1:1 ratio of total student loans to average starting salary of prior year graduates multiplied by percent who actually had employment a year out of school or some such formula. So, if your students are getting good jobs and lots of them then your students could take on more debt than a school that wasn't. Not just for law school but all education loans. We could start the petition and promote it on Reddit and stuff.
ReplyDeleteI hope you stay in this community, Adjunct, you may not write as much but you do have good things to say even if you only want to comment.
RAB, you're one of the few people on this site who actually bother to put effort in, and your law school news updates are valuable.
DeleteI'll post once in a while in the comments, but that's about it. I'm just finished with putting effort in to help a bunch of people who literally will do nothing to help themselves.
With luck, my resignation here will make some people realize that they need to do more than just lurk in the comments section. But I doubt it. I'm sure the comments will be more along the lines of "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out," showing one last time that readers here really don't give a fuck.
ALP:
ReplyDeleteThis is surprising. Were you active in scamblogging for longer than the life of this blog?
You indicate you will focus now on student loan reform. There are a number of groups that are pretty active in that category. I'm not sure if Alan Collinge or Cryn Johannsen or even Robert Applebaum are shoving their oars in for the cause much anymore, but like I say there are others.
I was not active before this blog. I'm seeing why people don't last long in this world either - it's just depressing seeing so many people who just don't care about their own futures enough to bother to help out in any way whatsoever.
DeleteThink about it.
There have been (according to the scamblogs) 40,000 grads per year, half of which have no jobs.
So over the past five years there should be 100,000 unemployed law grads out there. And we have four here who bother writing, and maybe ten who bother commenting. And none who are willing to do anything practical.
So out of these 100,000 angry, abused, scammed law grads, we have less than 0.01% here.
Something does not add up. Even if half of the unemployed and scammed law grads of the past five years are angry and bothered by their fate, we should have 50,000 readers and countless comments and support.
And we get sometimes five or ten comments per article?
Either scammed law grads don't exist, or they are pathetic. I think the latter is the case. They just can't be bothered to help themselves.
It's frustrating. It's annoying. It's something that makes me roll my eyes with utter dismay. All these people who are $100,000 in debt in some giant scam, and none are mad enough to do anything about it.
The facts about all of this don't add up. Where is everybody? And where are these angry grads with no jobs and huge debt? Why aren't they interested in fighting back?
This is one of those things I wonder about. How Many unique commentators are there? Is it just 15 or 20 pissed off people using this site as a form of catharsis?
DeleteI know quite a few underemployed graduates from my toilet and I am the only one (I think) who is pissed off at the law schools. By and large people seem either passive or resigned.
To be perfectly honest I'm not going to stop my actions against the law schools. My rage is too deep. In the past I have posted signs at my ex-toilet and tried to talk people (unsuccessfully) out of school. I think I'll start going to the boards at TLS, as another commentator has suggested. I already post a lot at Intelproplaw and I might have helped some, I hope.
Anon 1:44 -
DeleteThis might be a genuine part of the answer. For a peer or near-peer to add their voice to a gung-ho audience is and has to be a large part of getting this contrary view out in such a way that it seeps into awareness for lurkers.
I cannot do this, and with few exceptions (perhaps Campos), only a peer will be accepted.
There was, and might still be, deep reservoirs of contempt for anyone raining on their parade, which is why your suggestion is among the only valid ways for this to happen.
For all, if your contribution is to suggest to a future law student to consider an alternative view . . . whether by Campos, Tamanaha, Harper, or Cooper and me . . . that might, might help at least one, and maybe many more.
Another possibility is parents, who are at the same time tougher but perhaps a more effective group to consider. How to reach them is the challenge.
Thane.
@121,
DeleteMost of them are probably too busy working to take up your book-stickering campaign. You know, trying to help themselves?
Did you ever consider that possibility?
People don't want to give up their anonymity. And they don't want to go public. But there are some things I have been doing.
ReplyDeleteThe best thing is to spend time on TLS counseling applicants. Don't rush in there with a bunch of disjointed, random links, ALLCAPS stuff, or a scripted post because the admins will ban you. But speak in anecdotes. If some kid posts a "St. John's v Hofstra v Touro $5,000 scholly at each!" thread, and you went to Hofstra, go into that thread and talk about what it was like to go to Hofstra. Talk about section stacking or job prospects. Make sure to inform the kid that even if they do well, the best they can hope for is 50K at some LI PI shop, not some swanky job with the DOJ or Skadden. Ask him some leading questions you know will open eyes. Stuff like "so do you want to be a DA in Nassau or Suffolk counties?"
Remember, many more people lurk than post. Each post you make might be seen by 50 people. If even 10% take your advice to heart, and you post in 20 threads an admissions cycle, that's 100 people you helped. 1%? Okay, still 10 people.
Go to your undergrad and offer to serve as an informal law school advisor. But be tactful. Point people towards cheap LSAT prep materials. Convince them to retake. Convince them to take the money at the local T2 instead of going all-in on some shit T1 in a foreign market.
There's a lot of things you can do between holding up signs and nothing.
And we've asked time and time again for these ideas that people are comfortable with. And we're met time and time again with silence, or bullshit about how people don't want to give up their anonymity or don't have time or don't want to be activists or other weak excuses.
DeleteI'm glad you offered up those ideas. I think we've already suggested some kind of online army to hit other sites and post information, but people even ignored that suggestion. They can't even be bothered to sit at home and visit a site and spend two minutes there to promote the messages of this blog (i.e. approach law school with caution etc.)
These ideas are not new. People just aren't interested in helping.
What you have to really do is want to help those kids. It's not about getting back at law schools. If you go in acting like a soldier fighting a war, the admins are likely to ban you and the 0Ls are not likely to take you seriously.
DeleteI was on TLS a long time ago and remember JDUers spamming threads, posting a bunch of links, using allcaps, and generally just being annoying. It didn't really help the movement.
That was also because TLS was very immature. It was most high-LSAT scorers who thought they were above the JDU folks, and didn't want or care about their input. But things have changed. Those applicants from 2007 or 2008 are lawyers now. They can give real, specific advice to people. And the bottom's fallen out, and the guy with the 165 and 3.5 isn't such hot shit anymore.
Ultimately an applicant goes online to get past all the bullshit in the law school brochures and emails, or the prelaw advisor who's never heard of LST and just tells people to "apply broadly to schools that have good programs." Is $40K scholly enough for Dozo? What's my chances of getting biglaw out of GW? I want to do international law, should I go to NYLS?
Maybe I'll do a primer about what's worked for me. Forum admins can spot scambloggers from a mile away. But there are consistent, respected posters on that site (including Campos) doing work and turning people away from bad decisions.
I believe the reason that more readers are not publically protesting, placing flyers on windows, etc. is that it would make them look crazy. Maybe crazy is a bad word, but definitely amateurish. This website is relatively new, so you have to be patient. If anyone really wants to publically protest, you have to put someone in charge of organizing signup sheets for particular schools, and producing high quality literature. The literature should cite credible sources, and should include financial breakdowns of the particular school and dates for drop/add. It would also be helpful to anoint a spokesperson (preferably a good looking women) to give quotes to counter Pro-law school media reports. You need to have a recognizable, attractive person that the media can consistently contact.
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to join others at a protest if I thought the above conditions were met. Am I going to contribute money for a billboard, write an article on this website, go solo and hand out poor quality flyers? No. But I will continue to read this website, comment occasionally, and possible do more in the future.
There is a lot of shame with the “plight of the lawyer”. Nobody outside the profession acknowledges the macro-economic waste land that we inhabit. If you bring up this subject matter in non-legal company they will treat you like a burnout, or a failure. This is reason people are not gleefully running to the nearest law school and look like a crazed homeless person.
To echo Adjunct's point, those are great ideas!
DeleteSo here's what she could do. She could spend her time writing a post about this, setting up a plan, organizing, spelling out a clear and simple route to go about producing literature and stats and breakdowns and things like that, and asking for volunteers.
And she would post it here.
Then there would be half a dozen comments that were complaints that it's too complicated or too difficult or how people really don't want to do that much work and then that's it. We'd all just complain about how nobody wants to go beyond the blog to do work and that the blog is where we should focus.
And I guess she just skipped the middle steps and went straight from 'here's an idea" to "ok let's do nothing once again." And I guess she just skipped ahead five years to "ok so nothing has changed" and decided to quit early.
I'm as guilty as everyone else. I like the idea of doing something more, but I don't want to get up off my ass and spend my time putting flyers in mailboxes or visiting sites to give stealth advice or whatever.
If she can make better use of her time elsewhere, then so be it. I don't think anyone here has anything to complain about.
Adjunct was a loss. I'm sorry to see her go. I just hope that Adam or dybbuk don't wake up one day and realize that nobody here is helping and that it's all a waste of time.
Anon 1:53 -
DeleteAn excellent post.
One not-so-minor "disagreement": Not many *inside* the profession acknowledge this wasteland.
As you state, there are powerful forces allied with the Scam. If we see our job as helping future students not to get burned, current students and recent graduates to make the best of a very bad situation, the profession to correct this, and society to see just how badly askew it is . . . well, any one of those is a tall order.
To your points about what each is willing to do, perhaps we can turn this around: many *are* active in various way, anonymously. And that's fine. What would help is for these voice to be consistent in recommending options for future and current students. If such a student sees a dozen posts, in different places and contexts, perhaps that will be enough for them to suspend their belief for long enough to find out what it is we're saying. From there, this might be one person we help, and one less morsel for our ravenous law schools.
A number have read the book Con Law, and 6 have posted reviews. This is helpful, but more is needed. Agree, disagree, or somewhere in between . . . and tell others about any of the books . . . all are potentially helpful. For a movement such as this, if it is to be a movement, it will need a mass of small actions. There is no power here, except what we make.
Thane.
The audience of this blog is made up of people who will never participate because of the perceived detriment to their careers by becoming activists in this cause. Those who have a vested interest in continuing the law school scam (law schools and firms who benefit from hiring attorneys at super-low rates (or for free)) are the only ones in a position to help the law students and newly minted lawyers who are the would-be participants in this movement. Their only chance for a normal life is to be one of that percentage who get real legal jobs - they will not bite the hand that may feed some percentage of them table scraps. Changing the system has an indirect benefit to them, at the most.
ReplyDeleteBesides, like it or not, the established legal community still regards unemployed and underemployed lawyers as losers and loafers. The only way any but a few will speak about this problem is anonymously. And where there are incidents of individuals being revealed (a la the Faculty Lounge recently) the quivering masses are not going to step out even anonymously - even to provide a book review on Amazon. It's too much of a risk.
The only possible purpose of this blog is to exist and to document the problem. In the long run, being a journal and editorial outlet will be more effective than attempting to be the propaganda arm of a revolutionary guard. Like you said, the end will only come when the bubble pops. Your rag-tag band might influence what happens, but it is overly-optimistic to think it will significantly hasten the end.
Good luck.
Point taken, but I disagree slightly as to the "risks" as being what stop people from contributing. For example, posting an anonymous review on Amazon is no risk - it was sheer laziness that caused nobody here except Adam and TALP to write reviews. There was no risk there, just people who could not be bothered.
DeleteIt takes only a few ounces of common sense to remain anonymous online, and there is so much that can be done but people are simply to lazy!
I can understand not wanting to step out into the real public and protest at law schools and things, but anything online would be easy for us all to do.
I'm inclined to agree that it's laziness in the vast majority of cases.
Anon 2:01 -
DeleteQuite right, and the change might happen for reasons having little to do with us.
The advent of online instruction, MOOCs, and technology generally . . . those might be more of a threat than we could be. What's unfortunate is that these have been, so far, mostly a sideshow and perhaps even supportive of the numerous advantages law schools command. Chief among these is the *belief* that law school is necessarily a great decision. It is for some; it is terrible for most, especially now. Yet, as you say, this belief is supported by nearly all, and all for their own reasons.
Thane.
People who apply to and go to law school are, more often than not, people who have demonstrated an ability to work hard and make the extra effort. I can not imagine that a population that subjects itself to what is generally perceived by the public as a rigorous course of study and testing, consists primarily of layabouts. If that were the case, perhaps the weeding process of the law schools and legal employers is effective and should not be denigrated (other than to say that law schools are complicit in fraud for taking money of students they know cannot become lawyers in the first place).
DeleteI don't buy laziness. The narcissism and self-delusion of special snow-flakes, maybe. Hopelessness, probably. Fear, definitely.
Wow. I am sorry about this for the utterly selfish reason that I really enjoy your writing and wicked sense of humor. I don't know who you are, Adjunct, and yet I will miss you. It may be that student loan reform is better dealt with through the direct activism you are talking about--though you could write about that too on OTLSS.
ReplyDeleteOn law school matters, I do not think we need to incite demonstrations, civil disobedience, or petitions. It is enough just to show people what a scam it all is, in the hope that here and there readers will have a quiet conversation with a college kid who trusts them-- a relative, a friend, a favorite student, whatever. Or maybe the kid will stumble onto one of our posts, and decide to inquire further.
The big drop off in law school applications is evidence that it is not wasted effort. In fact, I think the scam will die due to a diminishing applicant pool long before Congress can be persuaded to do anything serious about loans. I think Nando was on target in his most recent post: "The Pigs are Sweating: Law School Applications Drop by Double Digits for the Third Straight Year." Another two years of substnatial applicant declines and law schools will be closing all over the country.
Agreed as to the selfish interest in wicked humor.
DeleteAlso agreed as to the real challenge . . . starve the law school beast of its meat: fresh young matriculants.
Convincing an almost-future lawyer (and parents) to put $150,000 into a business, a house, or, hell, just one share (well, not quite) of Berkshire-Hathaway A . . . all are better options for nearly everyone.
Go abroad to teach English, go across the country to find work, join the military, go to North Dakota to work the oil fields. Get some experience then get an MBA. Go into a field you actually like. Anything but a career that, for most, is a default, never-truly-challenged assumption. And now a deathly one.
For all, keeping this alternative view on the radar *is* your job. It's not just out of anger, or frustration, or despair, or hate. As odd and unfair as it is to write, and as much as it is a failure of those who are responsible, it is still our professional responsibility. If nothing else, posting a few notes here and there to let others know will work, for some, in important ways.
Thane.
Point 1 - that declining admissions post from Nando is big news. The dropoff is slightly smaller (13% vs 16.9 last year), but still big news.
DeletePoint 2 - I hear alot of "blue collar" jobs just require you to not take drugs and show up on time for like 60-70k. This is for industries like mining or railroads. Seen this on a lot of blog comments for the past couple years. It seems that even with relatively good pay, people who've been to college and law school are conditioned to want to work white collar jobs for less pay. We've been socialized into a bureaucratic mentality. (And so much for maximum-profit-seeking theory of human beings according to economists).
--Jim
Fracking can put well over $100K in your pocket. One 20-year-old is reportly making $180K. He works hard, but to your point, quite right. Not sure about the drugs part, but I would guess they frown on that.
DeleteWere the natural gas industry to be freed, that would be a million new jobs right there, and perhaps even a few to white-collar lawyer types. The U.S. could be the Saudi Arabia of natural gas.
Economics has been myopic for decades. Sowell has written some interesting work in this regard, for anyone tired of the conventional blather. (Careful. Do not read him if you're still in school; he will poison you with professors.)
I understand the immense amount of time, effort, and passion that goes into writing about this topic on a regular basis. It is why so few of the scamblogs survive in the long term. We endure a lot of criticism and trolling (even with moderation) and it can tire the soul.
ReplyDeleteI have tried to push the envelope a little bit by relating some of the personal struggle in addition to the data and news. I cannot argue with any of your criticism, and I only ask that you not spread your disillusionment to students who have yet to understand the scam or its depths. While I understand your frustration (believe me) I would hope that you would still recommend us and ILSS as a source for prospective students. If they are rankings obsessed, send them Nando's way.
I think we all approach it our own way. I do interviews for my alma mater, a T14... and unequivocally tell every student not to go to law school. It's Cassandra's curse, but it's all I have at my disposal.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the elephant in the room is the absence of Campos and Tamanaha, and I'm sure they have their own reasons for their quasi abandonment of the issue(s).
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, the insiders draw the most traffic, and no offense but a Tenured Prof. will get more.
In the case of Tenured Campos it was like he fell off a cliff last winter and dropped on his head and is now like that frozen green boots dead mountain climber on Mt. Everest that all the later climbers passed by and used as a silly landmark when trying to make it to the summit of Mr. Everest.
There are actually a lot of dead and frozen failed mountain climbers on Mt. Everest that are too cost prohibitive to retrieve or remove, and they will probably stay there frozen forever.
Or maybe not.
The scam concept outlived its usefulness for Campos. He figured out that his blog and his book were not getting him the media coverage he wanted, and other professors weren't buying his angle, so he went on to the next project.
DeleteI saw that all along. We were just a project for him. Like his stuff about the obesity myth (huh?) I never had any doubt that he was using this movement to further his career, and he dumped us as soon as he figured out that this elevator wasn't taking him to a higher floor.
The first year of his blog, he just fed our own ideas and our own work back to us, and like dummies half of us sat there and drank it down as if it was some special nectar of wisdom that we had never heard of before.
The second year of his blog, he started to write more and tread new ground, but then it actually started being hard work.
And the fucking elephant in the room that he was a law professor? I still can't wrap my head around that, but whatever. There were some twisted piece of logic from some commenters to justify that.
This blog is what ITLSS should have been. We should have taken control of the debate earlier and I am glad that we finally did when Campos decided to move on to the next big thing.
I would hate to see this blog fall to pieces.
Uh yeah their reasons for abandoning the issue are they wrote their books and got their publicity and decided to move on because they are carpet baggers not supporters.
DeleteGo away, Roach-Booger. Why don't you use some of the $500K you are hiding to fly to Nepal and climb Mt Everest yourself?
DeleteHey, man, I worked hard at scamblogging for 3 years. I made the very first law school scam video. I may have written the first formal scamblog post that used the industry's numbers against them. My blog was mentioned on the Wall St Journal, the NY Times and the Washington Post. But I got burned out and paranoid and ended my blog because I was afraid it could somehow hurt me at my job.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I have anything to feel guilty about.
I feel your pain, though. It's frustrating. But the overall message is getting through. Today I heard two of my co-workers talking about a kid they know who just graduated with a lot of debt. One of them said that college is just not worth it these days.
So we having an effect. Justice cometh, and that right soon...
But can you prove that we're having an effect?
DeleteOr are people just realizing that in general college is a rip off? Would people realize that without our help? I think they would.
Over the past five years, household wealth has plummeted and people can't pay for college anymore. College costs have risen. There are no jobs because of the dogturd economy.
I think those three factors are 99.9% of the cause of people deciding that college is not worth the money anymore. We might be 0.01% of the cause.
Let's not attribute results to what we do that we really have no right to claim. And I say this because it's too easy to pretend that all of "this" is working, and to sit back and think that all we need to do is blog more.
In reality, we're going to wake up in a year when the economy has improved (I hope) and people are going back to college, and we'll realize that we've actually had no effect whatsoever.
We need to do more. Just blogging doesn't cut it.
^ The economy won't "improve" until at least 10 years after that dogturd Obama has left the White House. Even then, that place will still smell terrible.
DeleteIt's hard to keep up the momentum month after month, year after year. I'll be contributing more soon, however.
ReplyDeleteAntiro, unless you've been at the bottom of the ocean with no internet, there's really not much excuse for your lack of contributions!
DeleteThis blog should not be an afterthought or something to check only after you've checked the news and the weather and Facebook and the funny videos you like to watch and a new recipe for dinner and spent two hours looking at new cars online before realizing you're tired and need to go to bed.
Have you really been so busy that you haven't been able to write anything? Even on those days when there's no new posts here? You've not got fifteen minutes per week to spend here?
Not saying that we all need to be rabid contributors, but I think that once a week is a really fucking bare minimum that everyone should be able to do. Any less than that and the scam really isn't that important.
Recently, this blog has been fading away. We really need one big deal post each day and at least one evening post.
I do not see anything fading away, and real life without tenure effects us all. For example, I will post less in the coming weeks because of trials and a needed vacation. Others will fill in without any browbeating needed. If anyone else has a good letter or story to post, we will post anonymous work.
DeleteI have also been complaining about the rise of alcohol on college campuses, but everyone laughs when I mention that. Should we be more concerned about a debt someone acquires or a wasted life with only the hope A.A. will save them? I have tremendous respect for Cary Nation, as her tombstone says it best "I Did What I Could" Hopefully so shall I in my little world. You decide which battles you want to fight. Ken D.
ReplyDeleteI have taken action and seen results. So dont condescend to.me please. This hostility, it will not stand, Man
ReplyDeleteI hope Nando has no hard feelings for Campos and Tamanaha that have left him high and dry and gone into the woodwork.
ReplyDelete^ You want to shift your debt onto EVERYONE's shoulders - and leave them all "high and dry."
DeleteWhere are you hiding your money?
The stupid is powerful in this post. You're like the socialists that objected to the New Deal because it would paper over capitalism's flaws and allow it to continue. Better to increase human suffering and misery so the evil system will collapse under the weight of it's own excess!
ReplyDeleteIn the last three years the scambloggers have saved thousands of souls from a hell of a lot of misery and a lifetime of nondischargable debt. That's a hell of a lot of good, and if the scambloggers never do anything of value the rest of their lives, they can take pride in that.
Good work guys. Keep it and we'll keep working for student loan dischargability, which is, after all, the ultimate key to success.
^ No, it's the ultimate acceptance of failure.
DeleteEmbedding a right to fail into the system is what makes it work. It exists is most other contexts and should in the educational context too.
DeleteAlso, too, risk of loss might hasten the day when the student loan spigot is turned off.
Says who? Educational debt deserves to be treated differently; it's virtually the only instance in which a penniless kid with no income can borrow $200K-$300K.
DeleteAs for second-order effects, the student loan spigot would NOT be turned off - but tuition would probably instantly skyrocket to about $200K per year. It would be a sweet bonanza for law schools AND students, who would find themselves in an unholy alliance to rob the taxpayers.
Would student loan "forgiveness" be a one-time deal for you? Or would it maybe even be given to you and you alone?
Bankruptcy discharge after 5 or 7 years of good faith effort to repay would be adequate.
DeleteAnd I wouldn't benefit personally beyond the knowledge that my country is fairer, better place than it used to be.
^ I agree! Because nothing is better or fairer than spending three years living off of money that someone else earned!
Delete^ the stupid is powerful in this one.
DeleteI agree. Law school enrollment is in the basement. Lives have been saved.
DeleteI got into a conversation at church with a current college student, seeking a degree in Accounting. He said that he might want a Law degree in the future also. I told him that he should not do it and there are way too many lawyers.
ReplyDeleteHe said that he actually heard about that, and that he already rejected the idea of a Legal Studies undergrad degree because the only thing that a person can do with one is go to law school.
I encouraged him to continue with his ambition with Accounting. I hope he listens. Scamblogging has helped me as a programmer see the actual reality of the legal profession and not be fooled by notions of prestige; so if people start talking about going to law school, I can sort of discourage them.
I sometimes think of placing placards of some sort in legal textbooks at my alma mater. Maybe I should do it.
ALP or whoever you are, sorry to see a motivated soldier go. Most scamblogs have short shelf lives; they say what they wanted to say and they move on. I don't see anything wrong with that.
ReplyDeleteBut at the same time, what the hell did you expect posting on an anonymous blog? I'm sorry if your cunning plan to instigate some kind of mass law school flash mob revolution failed miserably.
ALP, in the bigger scheme of things, YOU haven't done anything meaningful. In fact, this blog (and mine) started very late in the game compared to others who have been shouting for years and have been called entitled losers in the process.
You do realize that this blog is featured on search engines when people search for law school information? That should be enough.
The hard part is done by others before us. I'm hoping that this blog and others will put the final nail in the coffin before September. I can't wait to see which schools start laying off staff and possibly faculty as soon as they realize that their tuition revenue cannot meet their operating expenses.
So if you really are an adjunct law professor, then maybe you should go back to teaching, shoot for a tenured position in a few years (if such positions exist) and make changes from the inside. And I sincerely wish you luck with that. Or write a good law review article on student loan bankruptcy discharge. I'm sure a top student edited law review will offer to publish your piece.
Best of luck to you ALP. Hope you accomplish your goals.
The layoffs have started. Oklahoma City University dismissed three faculty and three staff - including the Dean of Students.
DeleteI have recently begun to contribute posts here, and put out an article every couple of weeks.
ReplyDeleteTo date, I've begun a website that is a warehouse of all the news stories and editorials I find as I research the topic. I actively engage people who want to go to college in general and explain the student loan crisis as it stands. I know of two people (so far) who I've convinced to forgo law school.
There are a lot of great ideas that Adjunct put in this post. I hope to be able to help more when calls to action are made in the future.
Its not only Law School Students being scammed. There is plenty of scamming to go around. Here is a great authorship about unpaid internships: http://www.policymic.com/articles/48829/why-you-should-never-have-taken-that-prestigious-internship
ReplyDeleteOccupy Wall street failed. The only thing that will get the attention of the public are well written articles and blogs. Get enough of them on your side, and the corrupt Congress will have to act.
I actually have discouraged many people I've spoken with in "real life". I've also had a lot of fun with law school recruiters telling them that I'm really excited about signing up for their programs and then totally disappearing. It's immature, but I derive joy.
ReplyDeleteWe're out here working Adjunct. Just because we're not taking on some of the bigger ideas doesn't mean we don't care or are lazy.
Besides, if you are a leader you will come across this behavior in any field. You have to have a direct plan of action and make assignments and follow up with people. That's how leadership works. There's no such thing as only an "idea (wo)man" there needs to be a managing director as well.
ALP:
ReplyDeleteYou're not giving yourself anywhere near enough credit. "It’s not working", you say. With respect, you couldn't be more wrong. The simple fact you post is a powerful affirmation that law school is a scam.
"So what?," you say. Well, many faceless (and yes, probably spineless) lawyers and law students are comforted and sustained by the simple fact that there's another person out there openly stating the truth: "See, I can't be crazy. I'm right after all." It's a growing movement and it's taken 25 years to reach even this point. Don't discount the value of affirmation.
I remember when there were no blogs (late 1980s) and lawyers who wondered what the hell was going on in their chosen profession would hide a copy of "Running From the Law" inside a brown bookcover. It was the Reagan era and you certainly didn't say things like "scam" or even suggest the profession wasn't all champagne and caviar. If you weren't raking it in and loving it, you were a loser. Perhaps mentally unstable or perhaps a socialist with an entitlement syndrome. And there was no public forum for this sentiment.
It's only very recently --thanks to blogs-- that this general topic can be presented. Even now, the truth is still not as widely known as it should be. And the conversation's still largely conducted anonymously.
But look around. Law school enrollment is down and the mainstream media now publish stories about the lack of law jobs. The message is slowly getting out.
You want action, you say, and direct action now. I love it. That's why this movement will eventually succeed. But please remember this is a nationwide movement, and it's very difficult to focus the efforts of hundreds in a single location. Also, look at the history of this movement. It's taken 20 years to get to this point. You're very inspiring in that you want to storm the barricades, demonstrate outside law schools, and confront the purveyors of the scam today.
John Brown and Frederick Douglass were pushing then-radical notions of racial equality when some progressives believed that providing comfortable chains and a 9-hour work day for slaves was progress. Many simply wanted to ignore slavery. Slavery finally went away after a war, and even when it did, things weren't all hunky-dory the next year... or decade... or century.
Yeah, you're one of the few people yelling this, and I'm sure it gets old. Real old. Many people who agree sit on their ass and do absolutely nothing. Not even bother and post. Is it fair? No. Is it irritating? I suspect so.
You're a leader in a movement; that means you're out ahead. Some of your followers are lazy. But that doesn't lessen the evil of the scam you're crusading against.
You were never going to form more of a movement than there already is. And to that end, I don't think more of a movement is all that necessary.
ReplyDeleteWhat is extremely important is for lawyers to not be afraid to make it known that the career is not as glamorous as has always been portrayed. The trend of scamblogging over the past few years is a monumental social change, so don't underestimate its effectiveness.
In my era, we lawyers kept our shit among ourselves (and our lawyer peers). We were content letting non-lawyers adore us and misbelieve that we were rich and overflowing with money. Finally, the truth has come out. Lawyers are talking publicly about the whole lie - THEIR OWN LIE! That's a monumental shift.
But if I was in your shoes, I'd be ready to pack up and go, too. Just how many times can you put on the same-old dog and pony show before you feel there is nothing left to say? Don't burn the bridge, though. Post an occasional article if you feel talkative.
This scamblogging movement doesn't need leaders and projects. It just needs discussion. It's working the best it ever could. There were never going to be protests with signs and water-hoses and batons.
America is not ready for rebellion, as is so clear. Occupy Wall St. was a passing thing. The Tea Party protests were passing things. Who knows what will be next? But what's important is that the current disenchantment is being expressed in greater numbers from time to time.
Here's my assessment of the nation, FWIW (and it applies to everything, including your planned student loan efforts):
Nobody is going to revolt while extensive social safety nets are in place. Food stamps, Section 8, SSDI, etc. What is happening, however, is that people are increasingly tapped (credit-wise) or cautious (avoiding purchases). These things will continue to threaten any recovery. Look at Detroit. It's the beginning.
IMO, politics is a pointless pursuit of any kind, as is lobbying. For the first time, I did not vote last election, and I have resolved to never vote again. I don't even watch the news anymore, though I do see current events here and there on the net. I don't think I've seen the news in probably a year and a half or more.
The point is that all these "macro" and "society" issues are just utter bullshit and a waste of time to sit and worry about. Voters don't run this country and hardly effect policy at all. Case in point: Obama is a good Republican, is he not? There is only ONE politics in this country, and that is the politics of the ruling elite.
My hope is that more people will realize this and simply divorce themselves from giving a shit about any of that stuff anymore. Just live a simple life and try to avoid things that help the ruling elites profit from us. That means reducing consumption, most importantly.
While I wish you well in your student loan reform efforts, I will unfortunately predict that despite there being a 100-yard wide football field at stake, the referees will only allow the ball to be played between the two 47 yard lines. There is no power of the people by way of the political process. It's futile.
Instead, go straight to the people. The ruling classes depend on us to work to buy their shit. The only way to even the score is to stop buying their shit. When you stop buying their shit, life is so much EASIER for you, too. It's a win-win strategy, and personally, it's a FANTASTIC personal strategy even if nobody else decides to follow suit. After all, if all you guys want to keep playing the futile rat race of politics and consumption, that's your business. It doesn't adversely effect my strategy in the least. In other words, my strategy works for me without the need for anyone else to cooperate with me. It is the best tool a person can use for both offense and defense.
JeffM, I think most of your past posts were crap, but I agree with everything you said here. I think its beyond ridiculous that Judges wear robes, and everyone must rise when they come in. I think it is offensive that Supreme Court Justices are now all from HYS. When we stop showing respect for these so called "elites" we will take away their power.
DeleteJeffM, I too agree with everything you said here.
DeleteI remember the euphoria when Obama was first elected. The economy had just imploded. Middle class wealth was decimated overnight and jobs were disappearing. Millions of middle class American families were being thrown out of their homes.
One of the first news conferences after Obama was elected, he came out and made a speech and talked about allowing mortgage cram downs and term reformations in bankruptcy as a method of stopping the foreclosure crisis. Then within a day or two, Timothy Geithner said "no ain't happening." And that was that.
Obama was elected to play golf and attend funerals and take vacations. His kids were ensured of their spots at Harvard. He is not running the show; he is the window dressing on politics that keeps the masses from being aware of their own position in society and social disruption ensuing.
The Republicans versus the Democrats is a false choice; people get worked up over social issues and identify with one party over the other while both parties serve the elite business interests. JeffM is right that you have to make your own choices and step off the path everyone else is walking on. That is the most direct form of political action.
Student loan reform will never come to anything more than it did for housing. Student loan interest will be paying for Obamacare. Student loan interest is a revenue stream that is already spent on a social welfare reform. Even the most progressive member of the Senate is only proposing an interest rate cut nothing so bold as principal reduction or bankruptcy relief. Both the government and the banks make too much money with very little risk for real reform to happen.
I think there are things that people banding together can do to raise awareness and warn others which in turn will cause some institutions to fail, but student loan debt relief will not be coming from the current political system. Better to try to keep the lemmings from going in the first place.
All I can say is: damn, JeffM, straight up!
DeleteWhile I agree with everything that JeffM and RAB have said about our corrupt politics, I cannot resign myself to total abdication. First, I am not well off enough to simply be able to drop out of society/politics. Second, I care about my nephew, who is like a son, because we spend 30 hours a week due to hard family situations in addition to my normal work schedule. I do not want him stuck in this same mess 15 years from now.
DeleteOne thing that we forget: we will have the voting power at some point. It is not ideal to have to wait, but the boomers will die whether they like it or not. In the meantime, we can change the culture through daily reality checks.
By the way, I always thought the big O was a moderate Republican and never understood the early zeal...but perhaps we will get to see what a president Hillary is like (hopefully nothing like her husband).
No, Adam. You are missing the whole point. "We" are sorry sacks of shit who will jump on that money-laden gravytrain and sell out the people. We just piss and moan because we're not so lucky. How many of the social leppers here would take a job as in-house counsel for Shell or Exxon or work in a big lobbying firm for Monsanto and Bank of America? I'd venture to say, ohhh.... 97%.
DeleteDo you really think there is a difference between Boomers and X'ers and Y'ers? Not a chance. This is who "we" are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFDND9SRJbs
Go ahead and vote. They've trained you well. Just believe in that mirage they put out there so you can think we have this wonderful democracy.
There are things you might do to help your nephew. Voting ain't one of them. Writing to your politician ain't one of them.
As far as not being wealthy enough to drop out of society, nobody said go live under a bridge. Hell, yeah, go make money. You're a fool not to. My point was about making money FOR YOU - not them. As I said, stop voting and stop buying their shit. I never said don't make a good living.
When you vote and talk about how you vote, you're just part of the continuation of the group of selfish misfits and miscreants who keep the facade going. Not that it would ever happen, but what do you think it would look like if NOBODY voted next election? Not a single person. They all stayed home. THAT would be something to talk about.
Famous words: "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."
JeffM--Thank you for a great post. I agree, I do not see things changing as long as both major political parties are controlled by the big banks, corporations, the police/military industrial complex, and the higher education industrial complex. If there was a viable third party whose candidates actually had a shot at winning that could make a difference, but the system is rigged to protect those already in power.
DeleteAdjunct Law Professor--people can contribute to this movement in lots of different ways besides dramatic public actions. The billboards, demonstrations etc are good ideas but are just not for some people. I, and other lawyers I know, try to contribute by telling the truth to anyone asking us about going to law school, or anyone else who will listen. Every time we try to talk a 0L out of going to law school, or post a comment sharing our experience, we are making a difference.
Well, I don't work for Get Out the Vote. I don't think voting much matters as the parties are not so different and they operate based on payment, not votes. However, the dropping out theory just seems like one more example of people being too lazy to protest or to organize or to do anything but complain.
DeleteFine, no one shows up to vote. The greedy asses still get to pillage even more in an unchecked fashion. It is not so different than the dismal voting results that we have already and the resulting politics. So?
This has been going on for decades. It is what it is. It's not changing.
DeleteAs someone else said, "So much of youth is wasted on inexperience."
In case you missed it, I said that 97% of the disenchanted slugs would take a job offer to screw people if the job paid well. 97%! Trust me. Society is not going to change. The names of the players only change.
You will be disillusioned to find out that the minute anybody can jump ship on "Project Misery," they will. They aren't here to help anyone. They are here to bitch and moan. Once they finally get their little jobs making insurance carriers, banksters and corporatists even richer than they already are, they are "outta here."
The politics of disenchantment and "saving the world" is a revolving door where people bide their time until their financial situations improve. Good luck with that. I don't mean to downplay your effort or your good-will. I just know the way people are.
The exercise is not "How do we change the world." It ain't changing. The exercise is, "How do we get by in peace and happiness in a world full of corruption?"
You can spread the message like Jesus did or you can run for office. Those are your choices. Even Jesus knew not to run for office. The answer is not in laws and force. It is in personal ethics.
I think that things can change if it is in people's interest to do so. If we remain a truly class based society, something akin to capitalist feudalism, then enough people will agree eventually that their lives should be better (jobs, taxes, government benefits) and they will try to change that if given the chance.
DeleteIf the college and loan industry continues to leave so many of us in perpetual debt and underemployment, that is a wide enough problem to spark affirmative change. But change will only happen when people know what is happening and what they can do.
I agree that most of us would sell out if given the chance. But that is sort of moot. I think our goal is about 1) not having other repeat our mistakes and 2) effectuating change by making the incarnation of the scams common knowledge. It has worked so far, helping to tank enrollment in one sudden free fall. I think there is much more ahead.
Right. As I said, you are seeing a change due to a movement based on ethics. People are talking and discussing openly.
DeleteOnce in a while, some of us bring up ideas concerning legislation, such as reducing tuition, making loans dischargeable, etc. That shit's hopeless. Forget it. Again, politics is futile. Honest discussion and the sharing of ethics is where it's at.
If you're following what I'm saying, you now know why that book I wrote is free, even though a number of people have said it was worth charging for and that I could make some money on it. The money part doesn't matter to me. That doesn't mean I don't want to make money; it just means that I thought the advice was important enough to not try to monetize it. Allowing money to creep into to a social debate will guarantee that the debate is corrupted and that honesty is compromised.
Yes, money corrupts everything, which is why I'm so happy that it is the foundationn of our political system, judiciary and all.
DeleteBut a coordinated effort can change the culture or the ethics, often by repeating the truth over and over. The tanking of law school applications is one example of this tactic working. I always look to gay marriage as another example of a fast evolution caused by the truth -- and the people themselves -- coming out. In 1999, when I was 17, I remember a gay lawyer telling me that we would not see the first stirrings of gay marriage for 50 years, nowhere, no how. America is too stupid, religious, conservative, and scared of change. Less than 5 years later, MA started gay marriage and the avalanche has continued.
I think that your view of a hopeless political process fails to recognize that marginalized minority groups, when organized effectively, can effectuate huge change rather quickly. I think that a huge population, such as indebted students, can help to bring about loan reform and bankruptcy protection.
No, it will not be easy. But I do not see total futility.
^ When you think about it, student debtors are EXACTLY the same as the government-fed plutocrats at Goldman Sachs, GE, etc. ALL of you believe in privatizing profits and socializing your losses. If law school had paid off for them, they would be jealously guarding every single penny of profit. When it doesn't pay off, they want to make the taxpayers pay the bill and absorb the loss for them - allegedly because the law school graduates will do a better job spending the money than the people who earned it.
DeleteThere is no difference - other than the fact that the people at GS got the profits and the JD debtors got the losses.
JeffM for once I really agree with you. Well written and probably 100% correct. I think that SCAM blogging is helping, maybe slowly but helping. I try to tell every young adult I meet who is considering law school to beware. I point them to this site and others and tell my boomer contemporaries that law aint all it's cracked up to be. Many look at me like I'm crazy but all it takes is a web browser and they can be englightend. If young adults are still going to march off to some 3rd tier or trap school they were warned. That is all I can do.
DeleteAnon at 10:57 gets it.
DeleteAdam, don't confuse purely social issues with issues that effect the flow of money. Gay marriage and abortion and guns is meaningless drivel.
Do you REALLY need Caesar to bless your commitment by calling it a marriage? It's weakness. You lost. Caesar won.
All you have to do is follow the money to see that politics (where it counts) doesn't change.
JeffM is right.
DeleteThe era of mass rallies and protests and "taking back the hall" is boomer BS. You don't need to stage a mass rally or protest in order to get your message into the mainstream media outlets anymore because with enough dogged persistence you can go directly to the people. And the common wisdom begins to change, not with a bang but with a slow murmur. It just "becomes"- the collapse of applications over the last two years is evidence of this.
Scamblogging is important because the chorus is important. When a law school dean gets in the NYT writing some ridiculous op-ed piece, people don't see it on the NYT website. They see the writeup on Gawker, and inevitably in the comment section of those websites there is a scamblogger or five exposing the lies.
To those saying they can finally "agree" with some of my recent posts,
DeleteThere was never anything to disagree with. Hey, if you want to go out and drum up a practice making $100k, it's out there, and you can. That is just a fact.
But when you do, you are going to find out that money doesn't always adequately compensate for dealing within our legal system and the myriad problems it creates. It's a scrappy system where people are pissing and clawing all over each other (I am mainly speaking of anything "litigation"). It gets old. It really does.
So, to those who haven't done this for years yet and become tired of the cesspool, I say go for it! Just play it safe, live below your means, get out of debt, accumulate a small chunk of wealth and prepare yourself for an exit strategy when you finally get so burned-out you just don't want any part of it anymore. This is harder to do for people carrying $150k in debt (just student loans). But, yes, it can be done.
For those who haven't already signed up for law school, you better really think damned hard. Sure, you can make some money. Woohoo! For points of reference, go look at all those guys pulling down $120k with $100k in student loans, a $3,000 mo. house payment, $25,000 in credit card debt, a $700/mo. car-payment, and all the other costs of living. Ask how many of them would rather have never started that kind of lifestyle but are now trapped and have absolutely no escape.
Jeff, this has never been a secret. Studies have shown for years that past making 75K or so, money does not buy happiness. I've been a lawyer probably longer than you. Law is a cesspool, but so are other professions. So? We all only live in our own little worlds and we make the best we can of our situations. I've been doing litigation for almost thirty years. You learn to roll with the punches, you learn to accept the bad along with the good. I know its not the same starting out now, but I can't think of anything else I could have done and also have been a self-employed businessman nor can I think of anything else I could have done where I would have made as much money as I made in the law. I now have several million in the bank and I am considering either retiring or running for Judge. But the truth is, my happiest times were as a young, penniless law student years ago. Life was a blast. After school comes a real job, responsibility, marriage, a mortgage, kids, college for kids and on and on and on. That is and was the American Dream. I'm not sure how else life can be played out in this country.
Delete"But the truth is, my happiest times were as a young, penniless law student years ago. Life was a blast."
DeleteDing, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
And just to think, we all give it up to chase things we don't need so our peers will think we have larger appendages.
We lawyers are not in the "happiness" business. There were, and are, many other things people can do.
It has nothing to do with rolling with the punches. It has everything to do with working daily in an environment where people only want to punch you. It's unfulfilling.
I am pretty darn good at the game. So much so that it is disheartening to see judges rule so haphazardly in so many cases. It has nothing to do with fighting skills, and everything to do with just being tired of fighting all the time and trying to craft an intellectually coherent framework out of a pile of putrid feces,with flies and all.
Here's an example: My brother is in the commercial lock and security business. He deals with his share of crap, as any must. One day when I was telling him it was past time for me to blaze a new trail, he said I was whining. I explained to him the key difference in what we do as follows:
"In your trade, you go and install hardware to secure commercial premises. You have some issues and go-backs here and there. Your workers might be late on occasion. I get all that. But add this to your world: Every single time you put together a good package of hardware to keep a place secure, there is a guy following up behind you with a baseball bat, and he will beat the heck out of all your work and try to mangle it and make it no longer functional. This, my brother, is what we do. We are in the business of destruction. It gets old."
You put your finger on it. "But the truth is, my happiest times were as a young, penniless law student years ago. Life was a blast." Why does it have to end? I'll be damned if I am going to just accept that it ends. I don't give up. Fortunately, I am not anchored to marriage and kids, etc. This means it's all up to me. I have no concern that I will do well in the "after-lawyering" life. That's the beauty of determination. The will finds a way.
I get where you are coming from, but part of that happiness as a penniless law student was a function of being young and single with the world as my oyster. We all grow older. Most of us, as we grow older, assume more and more responsibility and obligation.
DeleteBut I agree with you on the law part. I'm a pretty good trial Lawyer. Board Certified. And I had a lot of tenacity. But the constant wars with clients, opposing counsel, judges who are sometimes barely capable, or Federal Judges who are barely tolerant . . .all of it gets wearying. The worst part of what we do is the lack of civility and the lack of integrity in the system. The lying expert witness doctors, the insurance prostitutes. Truth means nothing in a Court, its all about presentation and manipulation. If lawyers were more civil and did the job the way the rules dictate we were to do our jobs, life would be far easier for all of us. Instead even the simplest things become a fight.
All so true.
DeleteOkay. I am glad that we once again had the same existential crisis that we seem to have every six weeks or so. Our message will endure. I keep up with petitions and protests for student loan reform, and obviously our cause overlaps with many others. I think we will continue to dissuade people by giving the law schools unrelenting bad press. We are read by more people than all of the alumni magazines and other vanity and old-school propaganda engines combined.
ReplyDeleteAs I mentioned, I have some other projects that I would appreciate help with, but I can go it alone as well. However, my annoyance with the solitary path is not a good reason to give up. It would be easier, but it is what they want: wear us down until we go away and business can continue as normal.
ALP, I hope you won't divorce us entirely. It's ceartainly easier for naysayers to throw tomatoes than do the hard work of workin' hard. I'm reminded of "The Little Red Hen" everyday, and there is frustration to go around to be sure.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, a two-pronged approach is a great idea - (1) Student Loan reform, and (2) fewer victims in seats. If you need to move on to flanking the enemy from another side, then we can still flank them from the other. It still achieves important goals.
And feel good about what we are achieving, albiet slowly. A couple of months ago we had 50,000 hits, and I commented that was one hit for every 0L on their way to the slaughterhouse in fall 2013. We're close to 4 hits for every 0L. People are hearing the message, if they are not storming the Bastille yet.
Don't be a stranger, and keep us informed of what you are doing.
To ALP and any others who wonder if you are making a difference:
ReplyDeleteYES, you are!! I am a current law student at a so-called Tier 1 school, and it helps a lot to know that I am not imagining the train wreck that is going on all around me. I don't usually comment on this site because I have little to add, but I read it every day and share what I read with my friends. I have already shared this information with some 0Ls and it blows their minds that law school isn't the golden ticket their friends and family think it is.
Also, explaining to other law students that our beloved professors aren't humble public servants has also blown a few minds.
This site may not have sparked protests or demonstrations, but it is definitely helping spread the word.
Thank you for posting.
DeleteAnon 6:53, good luck to you. I hope you have money from your school and/or serious backing from family and connections to the field to ease the future financial burden and transition into law.
DeleteOtherwise, feel no shame about dropping out along with any of your compatriots, and doing something else. Friends don't let friends rack up $200k for grim-to-nonexistent job prospects.
"This blog has warned nobody away from law school." I wouldn't be so sure of that statement. Look at the decrease in law school applications!
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. I want to add that it isn't this blog or that blog... It's all of these blogs taken together. When voices join together into a chorus they become more powerful.
DeleteI have personally persuaded 4 people not to go to law school. I continue to counsel kids that law isn't what they think it will be.
ReplyDeleteI have shared this and inside the ls scam with our summer associates who had never heard of these sites who then in turn share them with their school mates.
its all going in the right direction, just slower than we would like.
you will have my support on this a lot more than any student loan forgiving process. with as much info as there has been for a while now, anyone getting a student loan to go to law school deserves what they get.
now if you want to try to get the gov out of the student loan business completely, then you have my support again.
You don't get it, and this is one of the most insidious parts of the system, it censors the scammed with the veiled threat that if they speak out, whatever sliver of a hope remains for them will be destroyed.
ReplyDeleteAs for the rest of us, the system keeps us in line by making it plain that we will lose our job if we speak out. I would love to speak out more, but if I am outed, the powers to be will label me as a whiny loser and I will get fired. I know that my decent job will be taken from me as more and more debt slaves enter the market, but if I say something, I could wind up on the street.
That is why the Camposes and Big Law partners. are the critical components of this fight. They can't be discredited or destroyed as easily by the system.
My friend from LS almost killed himself this week, he is unemployed for 3 years, but what can he do? Speak out? Write? The system will. say he is a whiny failure to discredit him. When this happens, assuming there was any chance of fixing his life, a simple search on the internet will reveal the truth.
The only people that can stop this are people with very prestigious positions that can't be discredited or bullied into submission by the sociopaths and crooks in control of the system.
We are not cops, firemen, or teachers. We can't demand that the taxpayer give us a bail out, a pension, or a six-figured-guaranteed salary. The public loves that this is happening because people hate lawyers and, as a general matter, feel better about their own shitty existence when strivers fail. Our only hope is to have highly credible people point out the indisputable fact that this system is not merely destroying ambitious young people, but additionally, it is stealing vast sums from the tax payer in the form of guaranteed loans.
Your friend could always enlist in the Army. I'm guessing that such work is "beneath" him, though. Better to just die.
DeleteHow is his friend going to qualify for a security clearance that is required for many Army jobs, with such a large amount of student loan debt?
Delete"Many Army enlisted jobs and assignments require a security clearance. In order to obtain a security clearance, one must be a U.S. Citizen. You can still enlist without U.S. Citizenship, but your job choices and assignments will be limited to those which do not require a clearance."
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/ss/armyjoin_7.htm
That's right, don't even TRY to get a security clearance. Just give up. I guess the jobs that don't require one (infantry, for example) are beneath him. Like I said.
DeleteAlso, does his friend meet the age requirements? Does his friend have health issues that may preclude enlisting in the Army?
DeleteReplacing the Law School Industry complex with the Military-Industrial complex is the wrong way to make a positive change to the system.
Delete^ Demanding a trillion-dollar birthday present from the taxpayers, on the other hand, is just what the doctor ordered!
Delete^Although with our fiat currency, our fractional reserve lending system, and quantitative easing, the trillion-dollar birthday present that you speak of is just a line item on a spreadsheet. It doesn't exist in any real form that you can speak of.
Delete^ If it doesn't really exist, why don't you stop complaining about it and just pay it off, then?
DeleteALP - sorry to see you go but I think you are sorely mistaken if you think "scamblogging" has not made any difference. Remember that societal change is very incremental - it will go through periods of starts and stops. The idea that law school equals "models and bottles" is highly entrenched in the public consciousness. People have no clue about the bimodal income distribution; they have no clue that biglaw has only about 5,000 openings per year; they have no clue that Gerry Spence, Johnny Cochran and F. Lee Bailey are exceptions to the rule that most solos struggle to break even. It took decades for us to get here and we won't get out of it overnight.
ReplyDeleteI think the biggest piece of evidence of the impact is the fact that mainstream media has gotten on board - one article in the New York Times reaches more people in one day than a hundred scamblogs could - you and your peers overturned the apple cart and the mainstreamers walked over to see what the fuss was all about - this was unthinkable 5 or 10 years ago.
it was the mainstream media that really helped push the civil rights movement in the 1960's. people all over the country saw innocent men women and children being hit with firehoses on NBC, ABC and CBS. again, the civil rights workers overturned the apple cart, and the mainstreamers came in to see what the fuss was all about
You also have to look at declining law school applications and LSAT takers - that is another positive sign.
I think you need to step back and consider the way that social change will occur in our modern times. Technology has been the major game changer as people can get a message out to the entire world literally in minutes. If Martin Luther King or Gandhi had Twitter and Facebook, their strategies for civil disobedience may have been very different. I'm not sure that the traditional methods you advocate (physically "storm the barricades" are relevant today or even necessary. people have knowledge literally at their fingertips - most importantly college kids who are the usual lemmings
If you devote your energy to student loan reform than godspeed to you. nothing will truly change until the spigot is turned off for these schools - and if Sallie Mae had to take the risk of a bankruptcy discharge, they'd be a lot more discerning in giving out the money
as a side note, your original post reminds me of that "sorority girl" rant that was all over the internet a few weeks ago - someone needs to get that Michael Shannon guy to do a dramatic reading
1. Sorry to see you go, ALP. I enjoyed your contributions here.
ReplyDelete2. This is dramaqueenery that overestimates what random internet people can do and underestimates what actually has been done
Regular blogging about any topic is lots of hard work. And it is very rare that the author notices any immediate and clear payoff, regardless of the topic: It's not like the people who are influenced by what you write send you a letter telling you all about it. But I think that good scamblogging actually has a big impact on the debate. People are reading; just keep writing. My 2 cents, anyway.
ReplyDeleteAppreciate the comment, Prof. Kerr. I hope you continue to participate in this forum-- if for no other reason than that we are a much livelier bunch than the self-satisfied bores who congregate at Prawfs.
DeleteThis movement is about whining, not reform. It's about making each other feel good for failing. That's why they are mad at your decision.
ReplyDeleteWhen a new company starts, then fails to find a market and shuts down once it runs out of seed money, does it blame the people who didn't use its services? No. Fault lies with the business model.
ReplyDeleteYOU decided to embark on this crusade as a writer for OTLSS, not us. Just because YOU did not accomplish goals you had does not make it our fault. Lot of people here quietly go about dissuading potential law students from attending, to getting current law students to think about dropping out after 1L, to exposing the scam to a wider audience. Just because we didn't do what you thought we should doesn't make anything our fault. Fighting the higher-ed scam is a high-burnout task. There have been people fighting this long before you came along, and there will be people fighting it long after you leave. Spare us the woe-is-me routine on your way out the door.
I think the business can blame the people who don't use its services when the business was set up because people kept saying "give us these services!!!!" I've always been a bit disappointed when the writers here try to organize projects and they are met with the sound of crickets, especially when the project was something that two days before everyone was like "yeah that will be soooo cool".
DeleteLike OTLSS said in his post yesterday, this blog is not about doing what has been done in the past, which is just sitting around reading things and doing nothing else. That has been done before. This blog is about taking things to the next step.
If you're treating this blog like an extension of ITLSS, then you might as well just go over there and re-read those posts on a daily basis. This blog is about people who want to step it up a little.
I also don't think she was feeling too sorry for herself. I think she's just taking her ball and going off to play elsewhere with people who actually want to play instead of just sit in a field looking at the ball.
And judging by some of the raw hatred directed against her and in other posts, I think she probably made the right decision. I'll miss her posts because she was the only one who had any sense of humor here. And I hope she comes back to tell us where she is writing in the future so I can continue to read.
But that's all done now. Instead of getting this post into triple digit comments, we need to be working on the post of today. Time to move on.
I haven't read through the comments yet. A hundred or so comments, though, disprove OP's assertions about apathy, disinterest, number of posts, etc. I hope you don't have to write motions very often, Mr. Adjunct Professor.
ReplyDeleteAs far as apathy and disinterest, does anyone want to consider that the comments here were dominated for months by the same two or three cockroaches, who ruined the discussion for everyone? Speaking of apathy, where was OP when this was happening? He didn't edit what needed to be edited--as in edited out, on a permanent basis. Speaking of apathy, you guys are too apathetic to edit and moderate your own website.
Happy Thanksgiving, ALP, wherever you are!
ReplyDelete