Friday, May 31, 2013

Which law schools are the most overrated by US News and World Report?: A ranking of schools by mismatch between US News rank and placement success.

Imagine two recent law grads, A and B, both equally indebted to the tune of 100,000 interest-accruing and nondischargeable dollars. They are standing beside each other at a jobs fair. Or maybe they are fellow employees of Radio Shack or Starbucks, chatting during a smoking break. Or maybe they are sitting side-by-side on a document-sorting temp project. Or maybe they are coworkers in a government or public interest law office, working for free in the desperate hope that they might impress or network their way into a paying law job. And A and B hold the following conversation: 
A: (proudly): I graduated from the 26th best law school in the country. 
B: (sad and embarrassed): You must be really smart, much smarter than me. I graduated from a lowly 3rd tier school.
If prospective law students feel that they might enjoy being similarly situated to "A" in status and prestige, then they ought to carefully study US News and World Report's law school ranking and use it to guide their choice of law schools. If not, I offer the following caution: While consumers of the annual "Best Law Schools" edition of US News may assume that there is a very close correlation between a law school’s US News rank and its placement outcomes, that is not the case. Placement success comprises only 18% of a school’s US News rank, and US News even gets that wrong by giving schools full-credit for phony-baloney "JD Advantage" jobs in calculating placement rates. Similarly, US News gives full credit for law school funded jobs-- which typically involve a law school throwing a few bucks at unemployed recent grads and telling them to volunteer full-time in some public interest law office, an arrangement the schools refer to as "public service fellowships" or "Bridge to Practice" programs.  

In the table below, I have ranked schools by mismatch between their most recent US News rank and their Class of 2012 placement success rank. As to placement success, the rank is based on each law school’s percentage of graduates who obtained bar-required, full-time (FT), long-term (LT) (which includes one year long judicial clerkships), nonsolo non-school-funded jobs within nine months of graduation. I obtained the employment rank by going to this excellent calculator and by clicking "choose your own formula," and then by clicking "bar passage required," "long-term," "full-time" and "exclude from numerator: school funded and solo practitioner." This generates a calculation of each school’s employment rate, within the formula chosen, in rank order.

The table includes every school with a US News rank at least 25 places higher than its placement rank. Georgetown doesn’t quite make the cut, but it deserves special mention-- its placement rank of 32nd was (by far) the worst among the "T-14," i.e. the 14 schools that have been recognized, more or less accurately, as genuinely elite. And Georgetown's Class of 2012 stats were  no fluke--its placement rank for the Class of 2011 was 50th, also (by far) the worst among the T-14. In light of Georgetown’s numbers, perhaps it would be better to refer to the "T-13."

First tier schools are in italics. These are schools that, by virtue of their US News rank alone, may (in the words of Paul Campos), "attract[ ] the kind of highly-qualified, reasonably prudent 0Ls who would never consider attending the vast majority of law schools at anything like sticker price, and yet still end[ ] up generating a very high risk of financial and personal disaster for its students." Thus, even more than lower-tiered schools, they may function as life-ruining "traps" for some really bright and promising kids who deserve better from society. In addition to those listed, I also want to mention three other overrated first-tier schools that just miss the 25 place cut-off: Notre Dame, Washington U. of St. Louis, and the University of Utah.

One final point: the presence on this list of several Virginia and D.C. schools, plus Georgetown's worst-of-the-T14 placement rate, is a pretty good indication that D.C. is no oasis in the desert for newbie lawyers; rather, a mirage.

School

 
 
% FT, LT
 law jobs nine months out

placement
rank
US News
rank
Mismatch

American
38.4%
171
56
115
Catholic
36.2%
177
80
97
Washington & Lee
49.2%
119
26
93
UC- Hastings
46.3%
138
48
90
Michigan State
38.8%
170
80
90
George Mason
49.1%
122
41
81
Pepperdine
45.5%
141
61
80
Univ. of Oregon
37.9%
173
94
79
Case-Western
43.6%
144
68
76
Univ. of Colorado
49.7%
117
44
73
Univ. of Denver
47.3%
133
64
69
Northeastern
41.9%
154
86
68
Indiana-Bloomington
53.4%
92
25
67
Univ. of San Diego
47.1%
135
68
67
Santa Clara U.
40.9%
160
96
64
Chapman
33.7%
187
126
61
Univ. of Maryland
52.4%
99
41
58
DePaul
39.9%
166
109
57
William & Mary
55.9%
84
33
51
U. of San Francisco
21.3%
195
144
51
Seattle U.
43.0%
149
102
47
Temple U.
52.0%
102
56
46
Syracuse U.
45.4%
142
96
46
Brooklyn
48.5%
125
80
45
George Washington
60.2%
62
21
41
Univ. of Maine
36.8%
175
134
41
Univ. of Florida
55.6%
86
46
40
Univ. of Connecticut
52.8%
96
58
38
McGeorge
40.5%
162
124
38
Yeshiva
53.2%
93
58
35
Indiana-Indianapolis
47.5%
131
98
33
Hamline
41.1%
159
126
33
Ohio State
58.6%
68
36
32
Arizona State
60.4%
60
29
31
Univ. of Wisconsin
59.9%
64
33
31
Cleveland State
43.2%
148
119
29
St. Thomas
42.2%
153
124
29
Univ. of Richmond
56.1%
81
53
28
Univ. of Minnesota
63.5%
46
19
27
Univ. of Illinois
58.2%
73
47
26
UC- Davis
59.9%
63
38
25
SUNY-Buffalo
51.2%
111
86
25


42 comments:

  1. Excellent work.

    ReplyDelete
  2. http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/04/a-cleaner-ranking-of-schools-long-term-full-time-employment-minus-law-school-funded-jobs.html#more

    On April 10, 2013, Dan Filler posted a Faculty Lounge entry entitled “New Law School Rankings: Employment Data Cleaned Of School Funded Jobs” This article is based off of each diploma mill’s Class of 2012 ABA Employment Report. As the chart header makes clear, the figures pertain to JD Required positions that are full-time, long term - and exclude law school funded jobs.

    Under these measures, Washington and Lee University Sewer of Law is ranked 135th best in job placement. For $ome rea$on, Bob Morse has rated this commode as the 26th greatest law school in the nation.

    Indiana University Maurer Sewer of Law is ranked 25th greatest, most phenomenal law school in the country, by US "News" & World Report. Yet, it has the 101st best placement for 2012 graduates, in full-time, long term legal jobs.

    George Washington University has the 21st ranked law school, according to Pussy Bob Morse. However, for some reason, the school is listed 76 for placing 2012 grads in FT, long term legal positions.

    Georgetown is rated 12th by Morse, but it was 42nd in placements, using the job criteria listed in Filler's piece.

    Going by Filler's chart, Washington and Lee and Indiana Maurer - where "legal rebel" William Henderson teaches - are the two law schools that have the largest mismatch between USN&WR ranking and job placement. Your excellent graph also placed Wa$hinton and Lee high in terms of mismatch. Good work!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Filler's chart doesn't exclude solos, mine does.

      Delete
    2. The reason IU (Bloomington) underperforms is that they are very generous in attracting top prospects with "scholarship" money (high entrance exam scores factor into US News ranking) but where are these kids supposed to find jobs upon graduation? Many are from out of state with no connections. Most of the in-state jobs (law firms, courts, government, business) are in Indianapolis which has its own law school. Bloomington may have a wonderful law school and is a fun place to party, but it's a Campos "trap school" for all but the top graduates.

      Delete
    3. The top "Campos trap school" is his very own CU.

      Delete
  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  4. This is so informative. Thank you.

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  5. Objection; relevance. The Court has already ruled that going to law school is waste of time and treasure.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Amen, brother.

      It’s the overabundance of law schools that has created the present sickness... NOT the quality of the education they provided.

      Forget the hierarchy and scrap tiers altogether. First, second and third class passengers were all in 'the same boat' on the TITANIC. The problem was that there were insufficient boats.

      The profession that has become the TITANIC needs far fewer passengers and the administration of justice demands it.

      No one now should attend law school. Law school isn’t a “bad choice,” a “lottery,” a “risky proposition,” or "only for the wealthy." That’s outdated info. Times have changed for the worse. Today, law school simply isn’t an option under any circumstances for anyone. Period. Today, a law degree has the same pull as a degree in Late Medieval French history –there are neither jobs nor possibilities to use the rarified knowledge. The skills aren’t very marketable outside established firm practice, and worse, it’s a Pink Elephant of a degree that distracts your focus from another career. Law school was overwhelmingly geared towards creating armies of young fodder for established up-or-out law firms. (Hence the inordinate emphasis on status and class rank and the ignorance of solo skills). Law school is professional training school for established firms, yet this profession obviously has no remaining seats in established firms and companies.

      Historically, a lack of seats in established firms forced practitioners into the overflow seating –i.e., solo or micro-firm practice. Great. But today, years of hyper-production of associate fodder, coupled with the 2008 body blow to the US economy and the atypical nature of the recovery, means there are at least 5-6 people trying to force themselves onto each remaining overflow seat. And the profession is probably losing seats by the day due to technology. Admitting further passengers is now damaging the administration of justice as the newest arrivals overwhelmingly swamp the overflow seats.

      Close 'em, don't worry about their ranking.

      Delete
  6. Very clear and informative.

    These schools are traps for so many -- if you go by the placement numbers, 40-70% are effectively unemployed after graduation.

    Another interesting stat might be law school dean salary divided by # of employed students -- how much are they paid each year per student who manages to get real, long-term legal job? Average law school prof salary per employed student might also be interesting.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I like this idea. Please someone with more technical acumen execute.

      Delete
  7. Must admit, this is somewhat of a shocker. I always thought of Temple as a hidden gem that placed many or most of its graduates in the Philadelphia market. Or at least it used to.

    I am an old timer, but I find all of this information on these blogs fascinating.

    I have a question. I have a young, female relative preparing to attend University of Chicago . . FULL PAY this fall. She is bright, had close to a 4.0 in college (in a humanities type major), only mid 160s on her LSAT and yet still she was admitted. Do I try to convince her not to go, or is she safe going to a T-5?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. She should go, but only if she finds an avenue to diminish the burden. Just looked it up. Chicago estimates that total cost is roughly $75,504/year. That's $226,512.00 total (assuming no rise in tuition costs). $226,512.00 is an incredibly crippling amount... especially to join a profession that is on downward glide-path. (That's $1,894/mo on 20 year repayment, or $2,750/mo over 10 years. Before one cent ever goes to rent/mortgage, food, etc.)

      http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospectives/financialaid/budget

      Delete
    2. Does she simply desire the JD for its cache or does she simply want the intellectual stimulation (?) of a fabled law-school career? If she's looking to live the 'Paper Chase' experience, great. Go. Law schools have always been able to deliver degrees. And some even manage to conjure up some 'Paper Chase'-like scenes.

      But it doesn't buy you a job, or even employment. The vast oversuply of lawyers and other market force have this profession headed on a downward spiral. (Actually it's a powered nose dive... certainly not a downward glide). Thus even if tuition were $150, there wouldn't be any real payoff.

      Don't go to law school.

      I understand she's bright, eager, hardworking, and probably someone the profession would greatly benefit from. The profession ain't got anything for her, and any attempt to entrepreneur in this market is probably damaging the administration of justice.

      Delete
    3. is she pretty? if not, its going to be much tougher.

      Delete
    4. I hate to be glib, and I despise being sexist even more, but the comment about being pretty is appropos. This, for better or worse, is a factor.

      Also, I'm sure you are aware that for the vast majority of the rarified league of fortunate, talented winners of the BigLaw tournament, the prize is simply a 3- or 4-yr stint at the firm after which you're ushered out. It'll be their decision and your fault, not theirs. It ain't decade-long employment.

      So even if you win the tournament, your JD will pay off roughly in a 1:1 ratio --1 yr of employment for 1 yr of law school. Again, this 'positive' outcome applies only to the rarified, totally talented few who win the BigLaw tournament.

      You're degree ain't buying a job.

      Delete
    5. Yes she is pretty, but young and naive. It was just yesterday she had her braces off. At any rate, I have to tread lightly here. I have tried to warn her in a very modified manner, but she really doesn't want to hear my opinion on the matter.

      Delete
    6. The problem is the very small number of experienced lawyer jobs relative to the large number of junior level lawyer jobs. Most women from Chicago will be unemployed or underemployed by the time they hit age 50, if not a lot sooner. It is a game of musical chairs where most of these women will end up without a chair because of the extreme oversupply of lawyers, especially coming out of big law or in house jobs that simply do not last. A woman lawyer from Chicago needs very much above average social skills to keep working for a career and a lot of luck. There are very very few experienced lawyer jobs out there and very very many experienced T14 grads and other former big law associates/ counsel/ partners and highly paid in house lawyers without a real legal job.

      Delete
    7. She should know she may be buying a quarter-million dollar lottery ticket, even at Chicago.

      At these prices, even "success" is relative.

      Think about it this way. She spends three years in law school, which is almost universally considered tolerable at best, accruing nearly a quarter-million dollars in debt, and forgoing three years of income.

      Then, if she's one of the lucky ones, she gets the brass ring of a Biglaw job. Starting at $160,000, and allowing for 5% increases every year before the up or out decision. If, like many associates, she is given walking papers after year 5, and assuming the annual 5% increases in pay, she will have made just under $885,000. That's before taxes.

      Let's say that taxes take a fourth of that. So subtract 221,000. Now we're at $664,000. Now, it's not a stretch to believe that the $226K in loans will have increased over the five years that she pays on them. Lets round up to $250K.

      But, let's say she's diligent, sees the writing on the wall, and commits to having it all paid off just in case she doesn't make the partner track and has to leave after five years. This puts her in great shape in terms of debt (in reality, debt-wise, she's just back where she started before law school. How much equity in a home, how many cars could have been bought free and clear with $250K?)

      Anyway, so she's debt free by the time that she's job free, and now she's cleared $414,000 over the course of her legal career.

      Now, before we subtract living expenses, housing, transporation, food, etc., this "lucky one" has made, in exchange for endless hours in the law school library before 70 and 80 hour work weeks at the firm after graduation, what? $414,000 in exchange for eight years of her life? What's that work out to per hour?

      And eight years later, she has a JD, but she's likely to never again make anything approaching the kind of salary she made as an associate.

      Talk about a hamster wheel. And that's for the "winners."

      Delete
    8. Even if she can stay in the high salary in house or big law job for as long as 15 years, once the big law gig ends and the in house job fires her, which is the likely outcome sooner rather than later, there are no employment options with that Chicago Law degree. She will be left high and dry - no job, no income, no experience that will get her a job that pays six figures or even close. The problem is the severe oversupply of lawyers post-big law and who have lost in house jobs.

      To go to Chicago today, you really have to want unemployment - long periods of unemployment - once you get older because that is the likely outcome. Alternately, you can be a solo out of your home, making almost nothing, or if you are lucky, a small firm may even put you on its web site and call her as needed - a few times a year when they need her, if at all, but she would have to pay the full cost of a desk at that firm.

      She needs to plan for substantial periods of unemployment and underemployment with her Chicago Law degree and really want a career where marketing her resume and her legal services day after day, year after year, is an exercise in banging her head against a wall.

      One in ten women from Chicago may have a real legal career and job once they are in their 50s. Older lawyers are just not hired today and not retained, and it is perfectly legal.

      You see, the ongoing employment statistics, even from Chicago, and especially for older women, are horrible. Maybe it is the best kept secret. However, there are minimal lawyer jobs for older women, because most of the lawyer jobs have strict experience limits that older women do not meet.

      Delete
  8. Washington & Lee is the biggest shock here. I thought it was a top law school but it's placement is terrible.

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    Replies
    1. Not a shocker for many in practice in Commonwealth. W&L is living on fumes. Reputation from 1980s.

      Delete
    2. American is also a big shock. It has a reputation as an okay, somewhat decent institution, but where the rubber meets the road, it is barely ahead of the worst of the diploma mills (Whittier, et al).

      Delete
    3. If the profession is to survive, the 50th ranked law school must be at absolute rock bottom. A lot of them must close. And the surviving 50 should be graduating classes of greatly reduced size. W&L, follow in Robert E. Lee's example and surrender to avoid further suffering.

      Most law schools, like the Confederacy, belong in museums and perhaps re-enactments. They are not the future.

      Delete
  9. dybbuk123, just out of curiosity, is there a chart for the opposite - underrated schools that, if you have a full-ride, or able to afford for whatever reason, are worth it based on employment statistics?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good question, 8:48. In the next few days, I will publish a chart showing mismatch in the opposite direction-- schools that are underranked by US News relative to their employment outcomes. This is something that prospective law students deserve to know.

      Delete
    2. Try to monetize this. Seek out magazines that might want to publish this type of information. Have a list of several of these charts, compile all the mainstream news about this, prove that your information is relevant and see what happens. I work for a niche magazine (it wouldn't be relevant for our market, sorry!). But you should feel out other markets. I'm being 100% serious when I say I think you have a moral imperative to get this information out. It saved my life.

      Delete
    3. Hear! Hear! There is also a duty to the legal profession, which is the administration of justice, to stop the hyper overflooding of the legal profession for profit. The scam is harming more than just students (who have been doing the lion's share of suffering). Our court/legal system also deserves better.

      Let the law schools rot in hell. There's no Constitutional provision for them.

      Delete
    4. dybbuk,

      I remember seeing a map on some blog a while back that had little push pins representing the location of each school. It was helpful to see how certain regions were truly glutted with JD mills.

      I would find it interesting to see a similar representation of how schools are over or under ranked. I suspect we might see something along the lines of urban areas creating one appropriately ranked school surrounded by others that are over-ranked, simply trying to take advantage of geographic proximity.

      Delete
  10. Make your own chart, lazybones.

    ReplyDelete
  11. You have hit the nail right on the head. The most important numbers are the placement figures, not us news.

    The greatest accomplishment of the scamblogs, especially LST, is to gain transparency in placement figures. Schools, like American, Catholic, and Washington & Lee, can no longer say they have over 90% employment. Who would want to go to a first tier law school when you can't get a fulltime job as an attorney? Potential students should always look at LST before they make their decision.

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  12. This is what happens when you have a "reputational survey" as a huge part of your rankings based on what a bunch of cloistered idiots who went to law school in the 70s think.

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  13. Great post! However the information in your chart needs to be disseminated as widely as possible. Your readers should put it on every law school discussion board they belong to, the law schools' wikipedia pages, twitter, etc. This placement information needs to be read by every potential law school applicant. They need to know the truth about American, Catholic, Washington and Lee, IU, George Washington.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In addition to telling readers that law school isn't their ride, if you are an alumnus of these types of places, write your school and inform it that your duty to the legal profession compels you to actively campaign for the prompt closure of your alma mater. No, not the revamping of its curriculum, not making its students more ‘practice ready,’ not promoting admissions diversity, not forcing three years of study into two, but closing the doors and disbanding the staff within the next two years, if not sooner:

      "End it" (law school) in order to "mend it" (the profession).

      Delete
  14. I did put Filler's placement rank for Washington & Lee on Washington & Lee's wikipedia page.It was taken down; I wonder by whom. Punch the history tab on the Washington & Lee page and look at April 24 where it was deleted.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Uh - look at what else the user deleted:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Stinky1244

      17:35, 24 April 2013 (diff | hist) . . (+28)‎ . . User talk:Stinky1244 ‎
      14:32, 24 April 2013 (diff | hist) . . (-321)‎ . . Washington and Lee University School of Law ‎ (→‎Rankings and reputation)
      14:29, 24 April 2013 (diff | hist) . . (-265)‎ . . Maurice A. Deane School of Law ‎ (→‎Lawsuit for fraudulent practices) (Tag: section blanking)
      14:26, 24 April 2013 (diff | hist) . . (-109)‎ . . Nora Demleitner ‎ (→‎Professional career)

      Delete
    2. Here's an edit on the Demleitner page:

      "During her last year as Dean of Hofstra, Hofstra went from 89th to 113th in the US News Law School Rankings."

      It was removed 1 day later by this person:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Dadgumfox

      for this reason:

      "Edit was incorrect and had no citation. Edit was defamatory. Edit did not belong in page on an individual."

      That person has exactly one (1) edit on wikipedia.

      Kids - this is the industry to whom you're handing over a six-figure check.

      Delete
  15. Nora Demleitner thinks she is going to get a federal judgeship someday, maybe even the big one. But, that ship sailed when Hofstra got sued for fraud, regardless of how the suit turns out. Does Demleitner know how many angry Hofstra alums there are out there?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Demleitner never had a much of a chance of getting a federal judgeship. A lot of libs got angry with her when she testified on behalf of Alito.

      Delete
    2. If Nora Demleitner was ever nominated for a federal judgeship I would start a letter writing campaign that would flood the halls of Congress.

      Delete
  16. the writing has been on the wall....


    More Large Law Firms Will Fail
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOQfoTqTRsA

    ReplyDelete
  17. I'm surprised the "go-to" law schools rankings didn't get more attention. Everyone on the TLS forums should have seen these.

    http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202589186825

    Ranks schools by placement among the types of firms that will allow them to actually pay back some of these outrageous sums charged in tuition.

    And it's truly chilling when you look at the percentages of the classes that get such work....even among the top quarter of schools.

    ReplyDelete