Thursday, July 10, 2014

Indiana Tech Law School: Not going down without a fight

Indiana Tech Law School was a fool's errand from the beginning.  Anyone could see that.  With over 200 accredited law schools in the country, and four already in Indiana, Indiana Tech Law School was a transparent cash grab disguised by pledges to do "legal education differently."

Many of us were hoping that the central university would shut down the law school after one year in order to free the "charter class of 2016."  The school's ABA Required Disclosure page shows a pitiful 28 enrolled students, despite a goal of 100.  Its Dean recently resigned.  You can apply here.

Those 28 poor souls, however, are not to be so lucky.  In a thread at Top-Law-Schools that I recommend everyone read, Indiana Tech Law School is purportedly cold-calling in order to increase enrollment for the class of 2017.
 
Credit to TLS user CarolinaDreamer, who said he/she was e-mailed by the Indiana Tech Law School admissions (bolding was not done by me):

The faculty and staff at Indiana Tech Law School wish to congratulate you for your accomplishment on the June LSAT! We are still accepting applications for our Fall 2014 Class and we would like to take this opportunity to encourage you to apply now at http://www.LSAC.org. Tuition for Fall 2014 is Twenty-Nine Thousand Five Hundred ($29,500.00) Dollars, making us one of the most reasonably priced private (non-profit) law schools in the nation.

Preparations are well under way to welcome the second class in our new building and, most exciting of all, is our innovative, skills-based curriculum. Our goal is to prepare you to practice law at graduation, not after years of on-the-job training. More information about our curriculum can be found in our viewbook.

This year, our scholarships are based predominantly on LSAT score and will be distributed as follows:

145 to 147: $10,000.00
148 to 150: $15,000.00
151 to 154: $20,000.00
155+: $29,500.00
*There are opportunities for additional scholarship monies based on exemplary performance.

If your LSAT score is within our scholarship ranges, we would strongly encourage you to apply; our application is free. If you have any questions about our program or application process please do not hesitate to contact our experienced admissions counselors at 1-855-TECHLAW.

Best,

The Office of Law Admissions
Indiana Tech Law School

The TLS user said that s/he just received the e-mail on Monday, July 7.  Assuming it's genuine, and it looks like it is (and another user in the thread claimed to have received the same e-mail), this shows that the powers-that-be at Indiana Tech are not throwing in the towel yet, and are sending out mass e-mails in order to try to bolster the numbers of the incoming class, as well as giving 1/3 tuition scholarships to someone who scored in the 25th percentile of the LSAT.

With discounts being handed out like adderall in the law school bathrooms during finals, it's hard to see how the Indiana Tech Law School is ever going to pay for itself.  How many sticker-paying sub 145 LSAT scorers (where the real $$$ is) can there be who want to go to law school in Indiana?  There is already an accredited law school in Indiana that is more than happy to take them, so it's doubtful that they will be that successful.

It is only a matter of time before the central university shuts the place down, but with $15 million sunk into the law school building, the CU may be hoping that things turn around.  Perhaps they believe that news of school becoming accredited will help right the ship.  According to LSAC, as of July 4, law school applicants are down 7.4%, and applications are down 8.6% from last year.  With local law schools offering stiff competition for the low-hanging LSAT fruit, there's little reason to think that Indiana Tech Law School can improve on the class of 2016's 28 members.

That leaves their main attraction to be the per-eminent expert on "Hip-Hop and the Constitution," Interim Dean and Professor andre douglas ponds cummings.


111 comments:

  1. Are those scholarship offers for a single year or spread out over three years? Is that $29,500 a full-tuition scholarship or a 1/3 tuition scholarship?

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    1. "Unless otherwise noted, scholarships are renewable for your second and third years of study, provided that you earn a 3.0 grade point average by the completion of your first year" (http://law.indianatech.edu/admissions/costs/aid/). Note, however, that the Web site does not mention these new discounts ("scholarships", of course, is a misnomer). Could they have been added only recently, and only for people who are applying at this late date? Will the shit hit the fan when people who have already accepted an offer from Indiana Tech demand the same discounts? (Few of them would know enough contract law to understand that they had no claim to those discounts. After all, they go to Indiana Tech.)

      CarolinaDreamer, why not call their "experienced admissions counselors" and ask just exactly when and why these "scholarships" were established? While you're at it, ask how many people have already agreed to join the incoming class.

      Note also that they sent this thing out without even bothering to check whether the addressee did indeed get an LSAT score within their range ("If your LSAT score…"). That suggests that they sent it to damn near everyone.

      And plainly they're just trying to buy their way out of bottom-end hell. Last year their median LSAT score was 146. So why are they offering a $10k discount this year to anyone with a 145? Presumably because their median score so far is 144 or lower.

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    2. So for the geniuses with LSATs over 155, is it $29,500 a year or $9,833 a year? Does anyone know?

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    3. The ABA disclosure seems to indicate that they are going to employ the old "your-scholarship-is-renewable-based-upon-GPA-but-OBTW-we-grade-on-a-strict-curve" flim flam. My guess is that it's $29,500 per year but good luck getting it for second year.

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    4. Heck, is $29K for 'Fall 2014' a yearly or semester tuition?

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    5. Someone with a 155 would be ten or more points ahead of the median for the class. That person would stand an excellent chance of coming in near the top of the curve.

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    6. This discounts are opening bids. If you have a 155 LSAT, I'm thinking you can get a full ride with no conditions. Or maybe the only conditions would be appearing at events where they trot out 'geniuses'.

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    7. The fine print on those scholarships is almost certainly the same as with most others: we'll do everything we can to take the scholarship away once you've reached the point of no return.

      I too would be most interested to see whether these scholarships were offered to the founding class; if not, those cheated should be demanding retroactive funding.

      From a mathematical perspective, the school can technically afford lots of these full tuition scholarships. With grading on a curve, they can't all persist through the entire three year program. If the offer attracts 100 students with LSATs in the 160s and the school fills up its incoming class, over the next three years the school will convert what - 75% - of those 100 students to fee-paying. That's better than a class of 25 students all paying full fees, especially when the overhead of running the school is probably close to the same whether the school has 20 1Ls or 100 1Ls.

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    8. I'm not talking about the founding class; I'm talking about the people who had agreed to join this year's class before these new discounts (again, please refrain from dignifying them as "scholarships") were announced. They have no claim to those discounts; they've already formed a contract under other terms, and that's that.

      A number of law schools lately have cut tuition substantially—but only for future students; existing students have to go on paying full fare. Some of those going into second year may be able to transfer out; the others, however, have few options but to submit to the ignominy and the rip-off.

      Charles, a flaw in the scam that you describe is that the students in the 160s (I'd be surprised if Indiana Tech got even one of these) would be likely to transfer out if the discount were yanked away from them. On the other hand, as you indicated, the marginal cost of having a non-paying student around for a year is negligible, probably not much more than a few hundred dollars. So Indiana Tech doesn't lose much even when one of its purchased LSAT scores flies the coop.

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    9. Let's apply some Logic 101 to the post at 101. Is it really a binding contract until the students have paid their money, which typically means signing their loan documents? Those who haven't are absolutely free not to go, and shouldn't believe any malicious propaganda telling them otherwise.

      As for students with scores in the 160s being likely to transfer out, that's a fantasy from the fact-free zone. Indiana Tech is still an unaccredited school.

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    10. IIRC, no ABA-accredited school accepts credits taken at unaccredited schools. They'd be faced with the option of sticking it out and pretending that they're getting a "deal" by having one year "free", or quitting and cutting their losses. Quitting, of course, being the only good choice...but then again, falling into the trap of disappearing scholarships in the first place suggests a lack of the common sense needed to quit.

      But yes, you're absolutely right: any admitted student eligible for one of these discounts should withdraw immediately if not offered the same deal. Forget losing seat deposits, just run.

      Same advice for any admitted student in fact. Run. This school will not be around in the near future, and any ITLS JD will literally not be worth the paper it's written on.

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    11. Let's apply some Law 101 to the post at 2:12. Yes, there can be a binding contract even before money has changed hands.

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    12. Good luck enforcing that "contract," legal genius.

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    13. 12:44, a classic case of "I've just finished 1L" syndrome. There is no binding contract that an applicant can't walk away from. When you've graduated and you actually learn to practice law, you'll realize that there are very few "binding" contracts and you'll realize what a strategic default is. Moron.

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    14. You're full of shit. There's a contract. Whether the law skule would bother to enforce it or not is a separate matter.

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    15. 1244/1057, aka ignorant piece of social garbage,

      You dumpster-diving idiot, the contract only governs what happens to the deposit if you don't attend. There's no obligation to attend.

      It would be tragic if an aspiring lawyer found out the facts, but then attended anyway because some malevolent law school shill convinced her that she couldn't back out of an imaginary contract.

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    16. No one said that anyone would be forced to attend, but there could be financial consequences (not necessarily limited to the deposit). Someone above—probably you—ignorantly and arrogantly claimed that there was no binding contract. That's false.

      Go away until you have learned to behave civilly.

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    17. 5:02, consequences? Like what?

      No, really think about it. Like what?

      Being charged a year of tuition? Responsibility for "damages"?

      Again, really think about it in practical, real terms instead of what you gleaned from your 1L contracts casebook.

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    18. Consequences such as loss of any moneys already paid. Tuition for the coming semester has probably already come due. The law skule has no reason to give it back if the would-have-been student breaches the contract.

      Of course the law skule would not sue for damages. But that doesn't mean that there would be no adverse consequences at all.

      And this all started when someone claimed above that acceptance of an offer of admission, coupled with payment of a deposit, did not create a binding contract.

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    19. 8:02, so no loss beyond the deposit then. Not quite what you initially implied (which could have scared a few idiots into thinking that they could not back out from law school).

      There is no binding contract to attend. You are wrong. The only "contract" is that if the student wants to attend, there is a seat waiting for them.

      Have you seen acceptance letter?

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    20. Of course there's no binding contract to attend. I've never said otherwise. But other aspects of the contract can be binding—in particular the obligation to pay, which is just about the only thing that law skules (especially those of the Indiana Tech variety) care about.

      Today is July 15. Some of this year's matriculants have probably already paid for the coming semester. If they back out now, they may lose every penny of what they have paid. That would depend on the terms of their contract with the law skule.

      In practice, no, a law school jilted by a 0L typically would not sue for a semester's or a year's tuition. (People routinely forfeit a deposit at one law skule in order to take a late offer from another.) But it might be able to keep any moneys already received, which could range from a small deposit to a whole semester's fees. And failure to enforce rights under a contract does not gainsay the existence of the contract.

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    21. Pay? Pay what?

      People have only paid seat deposits. Nobody has prepaid tuition, nor would student loans be non-refundable at this point even if the student decides to go elsewhere.

      You realize that every school has a refund policy, right? And they're all 100% before the start of the semester, right?

      Find me one that isn't.

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    22. Even shITLS has a 100% tuition refund until after the first five days of class...

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    23. So I win this argument game, set and match. Thanks for playing, law skule shill!

      Delete
  2. The parasites known as "law professors" are trying to hold onto their jobs for as long as possible. It's not as though law firms are dying to hire these academic hacks.

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    1. I thought you had to be pretty bright to become a professor, even at TTTs?

      They may be scum, but I thought they were cognitively elite.

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    2. They are, and they know the abyss which awaits them. They also know that they are immune to prosecution and lawsuits, and that they aren't even socially vulnerable, no matter what they do.

      Under those circumstances, running it worse and worse until they actually padlock the building makes sense.

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    3. And the really smart ones--the truly outstanding members of the cognitive elite--will manage not to get padlocked inside the building when it closes.

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  3. Warning to all students of any age:

    According to its website, Indiana Tech makes no representation that it will ever be accredited by the ABA. As highly ethical and professional attorneys, they want you to know that so you won't be in a position to sue them.

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    1. Ah, but law school is SO VALUABLE that the $150k+ expenditure would be well worth while even if Indiana Tech never became accredited! Why, don't you know that a JD attracts job offers like an electromagnet?

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    2. And the JD degree is a chick magnet, as is Dean Cummings himself.

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    3. to be fair that guy probably pulls a lot of pussy. He's rich, knows how to schmooze, and does have a cool job: Hip Hop and the Law. Granted, that's useless as fuck, but can't you see him picking up tons of girls at the Fort Wayne bars every Friday night?

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  4. These are the Glengarry Leads!

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  5. Those who enjoy the liberal arts in their uncorrupted form--that is, outside of law schools--may be interested in something I read today. Apparently in Athens after the Gothic invasions and plundering of the 3rd century, the economy declined to the point where professors were the wealthiest people in the city. How much plundering the professors themselves did, I don't know.

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  6. There's some great comments on the TLS thread. Here's mine from June 22. It explains why so many lemmings still flock to law school, even though they at least partially realise its a bad idea:

    "Enter the law school hucksters, dangling 3 years of being treated like royalty, an ability to tell friends and family, "yeah, I'm in law school", the chance (slim to none according to LST data) of landing an awesome job at the end........EVERY critical faculty goes out of the window. People are being promised a dream, not a job, and for many, in today's economy, that dream is VERY VERY seductive."

    Humans are generally bad at sacrificing in the short term for long term gain. For many recent graduates stuck in menial work (or struggling to find any work) not going to law school would be a sacrifice. They are missing out on 2-3 years of being challenged intellectually, of feeling worthwhile, of being financially taken care of thanks to government loans. Sadly this is probably the target market for most law schools.

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    1. Linky link-link? (I couldn't find that using Google)

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    2. Somewhere in here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=195434&start=975

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    3. Thanks! On most forum/discussion sites, searches are trouble.

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  7. I just looked up a girl who rejected me in college ... Suffolk Law !!! Class of 2016 !!! What a straight up retard. I remember in UG everyone hated Suffolk as being a filthy place, fly-by.

    You scam bloggers should do a full mathematical analysis of cost of going to Law School, and not landing a Big Law job. The numbers look pretty bleak to me.

    Like say you started as a plumber at age 18, in comparison to a non-big law, non-connected lawyer with 150k in debt, where each party today? I think the plumber would out-earn the lawyer by a few hundred thousand by age 30. No wait, someone who did nothing and went on welfare would out earn the lawyer.

    And have any of you thought of joining the military? My friend has a federal job with a ton of subsidized debt which will be waived in 10 years of public service. So he claims.

    Worth looking into as a solution.

    If any one feels like answering, what is the average net worth of a non-big law lawyer at age 30?

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    1. "And have any of you thought of joining the military? My friend has a federal job with a ton of subsidized debt which will be waived in 10 years of public service. So he claims. "

      From what people were saying, getting into JAG was rather hard, *before* the Crash.
      Now, it's probably impossible.

      The same for those federal jobs. Federal hiring has been drastically reduced, private sector hiring has been drastically reduced. If you have one of those jobs, you'd hold it until they pry your cold dead hands off of it. And when they do, the odds are that they won't hire.

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    2. You will never get it John. You have too much hatred for boomers..for society..for life. It's not always about money. Not all smart people would be satisfied or suitable for blue collar jobs. And in the end, those who work smarter are far more likely to earn good money over those who simply work hard or with their hands.

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    3. Jon, I wouldn't call that girl a retard. She had enough sense to reject you, didn't she? She also managed to finish a college degree. Going to Suffolk was a devastatingly poor decision on her part, but she may have the inner strength and intelligence to recover somewhat. And if she ran in the same circles as you, her parents may be paying for the whole thing.

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    4. @ 7:17 and 2:32

      I have no hatred for society, just high taxes to pay for other people's stuff (a lot of it the boomer's stuff and debt) and higher education (because its not really education). I don't think the millenials are any better than the boomers though. And no, once again, I NEVER went to law school nor did I consider it. Not asking the question for muh self.

      I don't care if her parents paid, Suffolk is a joke degree ... I'm very happy she rejected me, I would be embarrassed.

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    5. @ Barry

      I'm just offering a suggestion to anyone with college debt, which is public service loan forgiveness. I don't know the details, but I do know a lot of friends taking advantage of it.

      I don't know if JD loans count, but it's worth thinking about.

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    6. So Jon, it looks like staying away from Suffolk makes you better than her, because it's a joke of a school. How about your undergraduate college? Was that a joke as well? Would dropping out have made you even more superior to her?

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    7. Jon, you must have no concept of how you appear to others...unhappy, bitter...ANGRY. I believe now I see the source of that anger. This girl who rejected you, went on to law school and left you behind. It is obvious why you, a non lawyer, are tryng to convince yourself that she and all those in her position, are losers. She may see you the same way jon. I suspect she does and that is the source of this irrational hated you have for education and the ambitious. You have to believe you are better and smarter. Yea...okay.

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    8. She's well connected and intelligent, so I'm guessing she went to Suffolk for the free-ride. I can't see why else.

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    9. @3:06

      You must be talking to the wrong person? I was a Chem major at N.D., borderline Med School student. If I wanted to get into a T14 LS, I would have. Or so I assume.

      I think anyone who is Med School material can get into a T14. That's my opinion.

      I didn't want to go into medicine because of the student loans and my job prospects as a Chem grad were limited. So I took up a trade and make a very good living ... more than basically all of my friends with white collar jobs. Does that make me stupid?

      You know that a 22 year old w experience can make 150k in the oil fields?

      White collar jobs are flooded with graduates and an insane work environment run by under-qualified, but over-confident imbeciles. Your success, outside of engineering and computer science, is often more about politics than performance in these fields.

      I barely knew the girl, BTW. I would run circles around her anyway.

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    10. You have zero exerience and thus zero idea of what you are talking about Jon. The "oil fields" have always been fairly lucrative work for the uneducated. It was that way decades ago and that way now. The difference is that the Oil fields are very hard work . . physically hard work, also very dangerous. Those guys are getting injured left and right and then live out the rest of their lives on disability. Additionally, it is hardly challenging work from an intellectual point of view. There are people who believe what they do for a living is actually important . . beyond money . . . and they require intellectual stimulation on their jobs. They also desire control. Oil field workers have no control. They do what they are told to do or they are fired. Studies show people with no control over their lives and jobs are far more likely to be depressed than others. Regardless of what you think your "potential" was, you have chosen a life that few others with any kind of ambition would be happy with and few intelligent women would want to be associated with in a relationship. And by the way, since you never worked in a "white collar job", you are merely a "tradesman", how could you possibly know about "insane" work environments and "imbeciles" running the place. You live in a world of your own making where your perception becomes reality. The truth is far different. And by the way, even when I was younger, it was well known that "plumbers" made very good money . . even had their own businesses. Well you know what. I NEVER wanted to be a plumber and have never regretted that decision. My self-identity would have been crushed if that's all I had accomplished with my life. Not to put down people who are happy being plumbers of course. But there is a lot more to life than a good hourly wage job. . and you don't get that. Sorry your education has done you no good. Perhaps if you had majored in the Liberal Arts, you would have a much better appreciation of what is important in life than you actually have.

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    11. This whole 'dream job' ideal is a myth ... you are older, so you grew up in a time when America was economically superior, and those sorts of cushy jobs grew on trees. Today, you need a Bachelor's degree to work in some sales jobs.

      And don't insult me, liberal arts is a joke. I think I had close to a 4.0 in all of my non-science classes. As do most of us with real degrees. Talk about handing out trophies ...

      It's people like you who have misled an entire generation into the avoidance of getting real skills. Yea, back in the 70s and 80s the liberal arts could lead you down a path of success in multiple corporate and public fields. ***If you go to Harvard or Yale, or a top 20 school, and you have an awesome network, yes, you can probably land a good white collar job, regardless of how useless your degree is.

      I'm sorry you don't 'get' the modern labor market. I have friends with liberal arts degrees from ND, Duke, Yale, and Brown. Most of them have pretty crappy jobs; sales manager, administrative assistant, and part-time lecturer at a college.

      An example: I have two friends who went to Brown and majored in History and English; one joined the military ENLISTED and the other is trying to break into high school level teaching.

      I'm not making this up. Very bright guys, not much of a career though. Can you explain that?

      So my suggestion that smart people find a trade is not ridiculous.

      I had a DOCTOR FROM YALE tell me that he wished he became a plumber. That's how much he doesn't like his job and how little money he will earn until he turns 40, after the loans are paid off.

      Open your mind. This isn't the 70s.

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    12. Totally false about the oil field jobs. Again, you are ignorant.

      75 percent of good paying oil field jobs, don't involve actually working in the oil field; they are related to construction, management, and development of the surrounding economy.

      Try again. Research before opening mouth.

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    13. Really, I have only been representing Drilling Companies in the Gulf of Mexico and then suing them forever. You are talking about people who work in a "trade". They are the guys who work with their hands and take those tough physical jobs. The people who work behind the scenes typically are college grads OR guys who made it through grueling years of the physical and dangerous toil and now have high up supervisory positions. You continue to project your failures on everybody else, your values on everybody else, your misconceptions on everybody else. You think a guy unhappy with medicine would actually want to be a plumber? Must make you feel good huh . . to convince yourself that girl who rejected you was not good enough for you, and that all of those job problems you had have everything to do with the market and nothing to do with yourself. But you are right Jon. I am going to rush and tell my kids to forget about college. There is no value in College because JON says so, and that they should seek out a "trade" where they will likely be hopping from job to job for the rest of their lives, living pay check to pay check. Because that is the way to go in the "new economy" and they should give up now in trying to do better for themselves. They should just assume failure now and get it over with.

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    14. Midrepresenting my argument. Trying to make it personal.

      I agree that college was a ticket to a good life from 1945 to about the 90s.

      That has changed. Some stem degrees are great but lib arts are not.

      Why are you taking this so personally? It is merely my opinion.

      And the doctor reference has to do w all of the pp work which has increased ten fold since the last ten years.

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    15. Jon, when you mention over and over that you hate people, they tend to take it personally. This is a very good blog, which works very well as an outlet for justified indignation against the law school scam. You're trying to turn it into a forum for your own petty resentments, including some girl who turned you down.

      Allan Bloom had some good things to say about which emotions and commitments make for a good life. Other than the fact that you have a job--which you seem to resent as much as everything else--those emotions and commitments are totally foreign to you. You really need more exposure to good books, as well as more contact with normal people. And normal people will tend to walk away from you once you accuse someone or condemn something for the fiftieth time. You've got to give it a rest.

      Delete
    16. Clearly college is worth it if you have a specific plan. The point about the doctor was related to the student loan and paperwork stress. My critique is of people who go to college without a direction, thinking a degree alone opens doors. That's no longer the case.

      Why are half of college graduates under-employed? Average college debt is 33k with credit card debt, but that number is bimodal, meaning those who didn't have their parents pay or on scholarship are screwed with about twice that.

      Do you care about young people?

      *Note: I was never under-employed, nor did I have debt (luckily). I was make forty K my first year for a pharmaceutical company after UG. I didn't like it and went into the trades.

      Your critiques of me suck. You think I'm a loser because I work with my hands, even though I've proven myself academically at a high level. What is your issue?

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    17. Imagining The Open ToadJuly 14, 2014 at 4:26 PM

      There's one group of people who tend to go to Suffolk and do quite well - engineers and scientists who decide to become patent agents. A lot of the pharma/biotech heavy law firms send (i.e., reimburse) tuition for their employees to get their JDs at Suffolk.

      So if this girl who rejected you was in your course of study (Chem), that's a plausible reason she could have decided on Suffolk.

      Delete
    18. College can be worth it just for education's sake, regardless of employment afterwards, so long as people avoid taking on huge amounts of debt. 30k debt not any different than the cost of a new car.

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    19. College is a joke. Everyone who has been there in the last twenty years knows that.

      I don't get the Allan Bloom reference. Did you actually read his seminal book? I, the stupid tradesman, did.

      Bloom won't consider white collar American workers 'intellectuals' by his standards ... he would call them the petty-bourgeois. His whole critique of the university was how shallow the 'professionalism' of higher ed had become.

      Do you have any idea how mind numbing most finance, accounting, engineering, and administrative jobs are? You consider this work to be 'intellectually stimulating'? Granted, law can be, along with some aspects of design in engineering and strategy in business, but I assume that's rare.

      Again, I went to Notre Dame and I like the humanities, but no one today gives a sh*t about Kant, Hobbes, Locke, Plato ... etc. ... The university is no longer a place where you can find culture ... it's a COUNTRY CLUB.

      I was disappointed by the culture of the university. Bloom was actually the guy who shed light on what has happened to these institutions for me.

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  8. What if you had a 170+ on the LSAT? Would they pay you to attend?

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    1. They'd presume you were screwing with them. Even they can't believe in themselves that much.

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    2. How much will they pay? I'll go there if the price is right.

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    3. "Don't forget this fact: you can't get back."

      That's from the song "Cocaine," but it applies to hip-hop law schools as well. You can't transfer out of an unaccredited school, no matter what your LSAT score was.

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    4. If you had a 170, and could get a free ride and extort about 20k in "Living Stipend" out of them, that's the equivalent of a 9.50/hr job. If you could get that deal from any law school, and had nothing better to do, go ahead.

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    5. My friend in finance just told me that his cousin graduated top 20 (not percent, but number) in his class from BU, which I presume is a decent standing at a Tier Two. That's what you call it?

      Anyway, it took him a distant connection after months of searching, to land a decent paying job.

      Scary. I can only imagine what horrors await someone at a law school ranked lower than fifty?

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  9. Anyone with a 170 attending this dung heap clearly is not smart enough to practice law.

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  10. Is it still 28 souls? One Indiana Tech law student committed suicide last spring.

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    1. Where did you get that information? I can't find any mention of a suicide there.

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    2. no way.

      link or it didn't happen.

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    3. RIP, so sorry to hear that. Horrible mistakes can make it seem that life isn't worth living, especially when desperate poverty and massive debt are involved.

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    4. Can we get a source?

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    5. Maybe things have changed since my day (1980s) but sometimes law students commit suicide. Never happened at my T25 while I was there but I had a co-worker who went to Northwestern who had a classmate who pulled her car onto the tracks of the Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific in the wee hours and waited for a fast freight headed north. Such tragedies do not only happen at TTTs.

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    6. Just has a lawyer friend in mid forties commit suicide. Knew he was unhappy with law practice, but no idea he was that depressed.

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    7. @1:18, newspapers rarely report suicides unless they involve a high-profile figure or something like jumping from the Empire State Building. Obituaries are written by family and say things like "died unexpectedly." It may not be in the media anywhere.

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    8. The school needs to commit suicide.

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    9. "A Tribute to One of Our Own": http://issuu.com/indianatech/docs/thebrief-april_2014/1 (does not specify cause of death).

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    10. Word would have gotten out if a student at Indiana Tech Law Skule had committed suicide. All that we know is that a 50-year-old student there died. Anyone who calls that suicide had better prove the claim.

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    11. All 28 students committed suicide when they enrolled last fall.

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    12. I don't know whether that student committed suicide or not, and we really shouldn't speculate about it.

      The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is 1-800-273-8255. There's no shame in seeking out help. Many, many of us have been there.

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    13. Don't commit suicide.

      Head to the Bakken Oil fields and become a millionaire after you pay back your student loans. The only problem is a lack of women there.

      You can make six figs, live cheaply and make bank.

      It might take a decade, but there is hope !!!

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    14. I've certainly been there—both before and during law school.

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    15. The idea that just anyone can waltz into the Bakken oilfields and grab a million dollars is a childish fantasy.

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    16. You can't 'waltz' into anything. And I generally agree that the American dream of 'you can do anything with the right attitude' is bullshit.

      But the Bakken is legit. I have friends up there who have done well working four months out of the year. There are a lot of morons up there, so you can rise quick if you possess the right traits.

      If you want six figs, and potentially your rent paid for, it's doable within a year of networking and proving yourself. Why don't people do it? Lack of company, women, and the weather sucks. Work is hard.

      There is hope in the oil field that you won't find in a cubicle.

      Those six fig, hell even fifty k white collar jobs are disappearing like snow flakes.

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  11. Indiana Tech is obviously fighting for its survival, but what is the perceived enemy? High law school tuition. I think we should give them credit for fighting high law school tuition with their relatively low rate and new, aggressive discounts.

    Of course, no one but a Fort Wayne native should go there even for free, but I don't see low tuition as being morally depraved, certainly not in the same way that Brian Leiter is morally depraved.

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    1. "relatively low rate"? Their base rate is $29k isn't it? An absolute bottom of the barrel toilet like this should be charging under $10k p/a. Actually the vast majority of law schools should be charging no more than $10k-$15k p/a.

      As for their supposed generous discounting, I'd like to see all the terms and stipulations.

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    2. Good points, but $29K is lower than most private schools...

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    3. 6:09 & 3:58 -- this school is unaccredited. Are you mad?

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  12. I have a rodent problem at my house. Rats live in my garage and mice get into my house. One time I had a mice cornered with no way out, but the mouse miraculously ran up the wall, jumped on my head and scampered off. I have captured a wild rat that survived 12 hours with a bar choking it and keep it in a steel cage covered with bricks. Several times it has chewed through plastic and thick metal wire and escaped.
    The rodents have a life instinct - they desperately want to be free to live their lives as they they have lived them and to stay alive, no matter what.
    Law professors, especially at Indiana Tech, have a life instinct too. All they care about is their own welfare. They want to be free to write their useless articles, pontificate in class (but only for 4 hours a week), and collect a large salary. They will do whatever it takes to achieve that aim.
    So the Indiana Tech faculty has stumbled upon this radical solution. They will give huge discounts, even free tuition, just to have some warm bodies in the seats for another year or two, just so that the school will stay alive and the faculty and deans can collect their salaries. I don't blame them really, they are acting just like any rodent would.

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    1. I get the anslogy. People who have desirable jobs are rodents, because after all, no scam blogger would ever lower themselves to be a law school professor. Much more noble to be a plumber, truck driver or cop

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    2. I really think there are a few big donors behind this. They may have no idea how marginal and ridiculous this project is, and dean pond cummings is obviously not going to inform them. They are really getting soaked by this fiasco, due to poor information, local or regional pride, and optimism bias.

      Meanwhile, andre douglas pond cummings and his posse are getting while the getting is good, with little thought for the future. In a couple of years, those donors are going to be seriously pissed. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some huge lawsuits to recover their wasted money.

      And what about the art collection? That was donated by some generous friends of the school, but they don't mention it much any more. Does it still exist? Was it stolen? Who's got the art work?

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    3. Recover the money from whom? Once the law skule has gone down the drain, whom will the donors sue?

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    4. They could sue whoever owns the law school building, and either sell it or force them to mortgage it to pay the money back.

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  13. I think this school might be in even more trouble than we think. My understanding is (1) unless the school gets provisional accreditation, graduates will not be able to take the bar anywhere--not even in Indiana; and (2) although the ABA is pretty generous in granting accreditation normally, it's going to be hard to get accredited without a stable administration (sufficient funding, stable deanship etc). I think there is a real chance that in two years the charter class will learn that it is ineligible to sit for the bar. Then I was thinking that at least if the school closes before the first class graduates (like if they close if/when the ABA denies provisional accreditation), at least the students could get a "closed school discharge" of their loans. But on reading the relevant reg, I don't think they could--the discharge applies when "the school ceases to provide educational instruction in all programs." 34 CFR 685.214 - CLOSED SCHOOL DISCHARGE. Indy Tech is a large university, and even if it terminates the JD program, it will still continue to provide degrees in other programs. So if I am understanding things correctly, it looks like there is a significant chance that the school will not be accredited, and that students will graduate with significant (nondischargeable) debt, unable to take the bar anywhere. I know the school has disclosed that it might not get accreditation, but I wonder if the 26 students understand the implications of that...

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    1. AND, the credits will not be transferable.

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    2. It would take a hell of a lot for the ABA to deny provisional accreditation to a new toilet.

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    3. But it can happen. Law school in TN and a few others over the years were denied provisional. ABA protectionism seems to only apply when you're in the club (fully accredited).

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    4. What you say might very well turn out to be the case. However, IT might have some options. It could either refund the tuition money, or offer them free tuition to get some other degree (such as an MBA or accounting degree). Or it could tell its students the "education" wasn't completely useless, since they could go to California and take the Bar Exam there (maybe they would have to take the first -year "Baby Bar" first). Or IT could claim that it fully disclosed the risks to potential students.
      We can now see that IT made a serious mistake in not following the UC Irvine path and offering free tuition to the first class to get the school going.

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  14. Some Law Profs actually work pretty hard:

    http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/was_law_profs_frenzied_output_worth_it_his_widow_says_work_devotion_came_at

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    1. I don't know what's the real story there, but this seems to be indicative of the legal professoriate's obsession with scholarship above teaching.

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  15. Just for anyone is curious about their future (and lacks real connections), if you want to survive in the new economy, get a degree in engineering or get a trade or some other serious STEM degree.

    I'd love to hear from anyone who thinks this is not the case because that's what I tell all of my younger cousins.

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    1. I worked in a STEM field. For ten years. And could not get back into it after a big round of lay-offs.

      One can get a degree in STEM (an acronym that I had never seen until last year) and still be forced to change careers.

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    2. I agree. STEM should be changed to 'EMM'

      Engineering (include programming in this), Math (actuary, accountant, some forms of finance), and Medicine (nursing included).

      Chem, my degree, and bio, suck as careers right now. Science is not a good career, except if you love it and are absolutely brilliant at it.

      IT is a hit or miss field, so the 'technology' is overrated.

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    3. Quite true. I recently graduated with a Physics major, naively thinking it would lead to a good career. I am looking to get into finance now and have a real shot at a decent position, but I only have the opportunity that I do because of the connections that I developed while in college.

      Ultimately, the idea of higher education leading to opportunity is a straight lie for most students these days. I don't look forward to having kids that want to go to college, and probably a wife encouraging them to do so.

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    4. Haha, I was just going to say, DON'T do finance unless you have a connection. There are two tiers in finance; the top fifteen to twenty percent of grads, who get high paying and engaging (albeit stressful and demanding) jobs, then everyone else who do bitch work and never have a real career.

      Finance, like accounting and law, is two-tier. No one every tells you this ...

      And I was pissed that my Chem degree from Notre Dame got me no better than a job paying 40k in Chicago. That's like living on food stamps. WTF?

      Many of us who picked hard majors and did well, unlike 'business' and 'english' majors who just f*cked around and drank. We were lied to ... it's about skills that employers want, not grades in hard classes.

      F*ck professors, guidance couselors, and that whole apparatus of money-grubbing boomer whores. They just wanted out money ... or our parents money for tuition.

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  16. JonJuly 14, 2014 at 2:44 PM

    "I agree. STEM should be changed to 'EMM'

    Engineering (include programming in this), Math (actuary, accountant, some forms of finance), and Medicine (nursing included).

    Chem, my degree, and bio, suck as careers right now. Science is not a good career, except if you love it and are absolutely brilliant at it.

    IT is a hit or miss field, so the 'technology' is overrated."


    Yes. 'STEM' covers everything from a Math BS (lousy employment prospect) to a CS BS (excellent, but age discrimination starts at 30, and H1B visa's allow indentured servants to compete with you) to Chem, Bio, Math and Physics Ph.D.'s (lousy employment prospect).

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    1. STEM hype is bullshit because it makes you think that non-STEM majors are lazy. I agree to an extent, being a Chem major, that lib art students don't have to study hard or at all.

      But it's not like if we all just studied math, chem, or bio we would have jobs. Most of us who did study those subjects have shit job prospects.

      STEM is a lie. It's engineering or medicine. Just say it plain.

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  17. STEM has had employment problems since the 1990s. These days, only doctors and engineers are able to find work. Everything else is a waste of time & money, unless you go to a great school.

    Doctors seem to enjoy a reasonable amount of career options and a decent salary, BUT both their salary & power has declined substantially compared to what they had in the 1980s. Also, the red tape doctors have to deal with today (due, in part, to there being too many lawyers) can be very frustrating. Still, medical school is a much more worthwhile investment than law school.

    Sadly, this doesn't apply to nurses. Despite us needing more nurses (frankly, the more nurses we have the better off we are), there isn't money to pay them. As hospitals cut their budgets and insurances don't pay, nurses seem to be the first to be let go.

    Engineers appear to be doing well, but much of that has to do with the small number of engineers in the workforce relative to other majors. I think as more people flock to engineering and/or if the US immigration service changes its visa policy, we may suddenly have a flooded market once again. Remember that it wasn't too long ago when we had a surplus of engineers.

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    1. Yes, I think engineering will be flooded, I see it already with people a bit younger than me.

      As long as you are talented, engineering is a great field, but if you are mediocre as an engineer, the future is not going to be bright.

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    2. Nursing ... totally flooded field from what I hear.

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  18. This school needs to go down like Rocky should have when he got pummeled by Ivan Drago..

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  19. Anyone have any recommendations for an ediscovery software??

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