Dear Indiana Tech:
I realize that it
must seem like an exciting time right now, what with twenty-some-odd students
enrolling for your first class. I know
you are already looking ahead to accreditation, to expanding the roster, and
producing freshly-minted JD graduates in the next three years. There is a lot to do, and the thought of the
tasks ahead in becoming a Practicing Law School can be exciting and
invigorating.
It reminds me of when
I, as a student, applied to Law School several years ago. There was so much to consider. So much to plan for. I bet it is similar with you right now - you
researched the market for potential law students, talked to other Law Schools
about their careers, and everything seemed promising and bright for joining the
ranks of Practicing Law Schools.
However, when I as a student researched the market, went to Law School
open houses, and talked to the attorneys I knew, there are some frank things I
wish I had known and some things I wish I had been told, and I want you to have
the advantage of the general insight I didn't have access to.
First, have you
considered market saturation? There are
already four other established Law Schools in your jurisdiction that have been
in business for some time now. There are
scores of such Law Schools across the country.
Let’s be honest: there has been overproduction of Law Schools for a long
time now...is this really the best use of your talents and abilities? I don't say this to say you "can't cut
it" (I really don't want you to try to "prove yourself"), I say it because the market is tough out there. Do you want to be part of a scholastic
profession that already has so many Schools scrambling for so few entry-level
students? Based on merely a pre-packaged
and almost mythical idea of how cool it would be to be a practicing Law
School? Have you considered looking at
an underserved market, like Nebraska, instead of doubling down on Indiana?
Second, do you
realize that becoming a Law School has very little to do with being an actual,
practicing, established Law School? Yes,
I realize that per the ABA you have to have a large library with print
materials, a fax machine, and impressive facilities among other things. Certainly you will produce many, many law
reviews and scholarly journals.
Certainly you will open clinics and give symposia on various academic
legal matters. But have you considered
that fact that scholarly work-product and a large building doesn't remove you
from the hard work of actually have to drum up students? That you have to produce actual, real results
for your graduates (i.e. the ability to get jobs), otherwise future students
would be foolish to apply to your program?
Third, consider the
statistics. Other Law Schools may say
that "now is a great time to become a Law School," but have you
looked at the actual law student application data? Many schools like to tout how many applicants
they get, but rest assured that there is a bimodal distribution of students
when you look at LSAT scores and GPAs.
Are you banking on getting hypothetical "median" law students
that don't actually exist, as there are actually very few high LSAT/high GPA
candidates but many, many low LSAT/low GPA candidates? Perhaps you should consider some sort of
"Law School-Advantage" position - maybe retool the facilities into a
Graduate School that is more in demand.
While it may take some time to garner the credibility necessary to move
away from being a Law School, that would be better, long-term, than trying to
force something to happen that doesn't want to happen.
Please, don't take
this as an insult. This is really
intended to make you think before you commit.
Theory-vs.-practice is worlds apart in this case. It's possible to change gears now, and end up
in a place you would actually like to be.
Becoming a Graduate School where the students have actual career
prospects, instead of being known as a money-sink that sucks students dry and
tosses their carcasses away in a large heap, is much more rewarding. Yes, you many have one or two students who
are the children of judges or partners at large law firms, but do you
realistically think you can get access to that clientele all the time? Moving into an area in actual need is not a
failure, unless you choose to perceive it that way.
I sense, however,
that you are a "special snowflake" Law School and won't give real
credence to the points I have brought up.
That you are going to "beat the odds." That you are "better than the rest and
will be in the top 10% of Law Schools," even though that's not really what
this is all about. Again, I tried to
give you fair, honest warnings about your career choices, something I never had
in my own right when contemplating Law School.
Oh well. If nothing else, at least your debt will be
dischargeable in bankruptcy. That's
something.
very good.
ReplyDeletebut I have a question. what degrees would the following actually encompass?
"Becoming a Graduate School where the students have actual career prospects"
Cheaper, shorter degrees? I dunno. It's a case of being less damaging.
DeleteIndiana Tech has made several very foolish decisions! I really hope anyone considering a degree of any sort, do their homework on the colleges they consider, this is a private college (which means it costs more then state universities) and has one of the lowest graduation rates in the state! Wish I knew this before signing up for what will now be years of my life in debt. and a virtually useless degree (btw you can't write off student loans in bankruptcy) you're stuck with them you're whole life.
DeleteBrilliantly turned around the law school pigs' rhetoric, to show them how absolutely foolish their "arguments" sound. Good job, duped.
ReplyDeleteNothing that I can think of. In the couple of years or so (or more) it would take to get a graduate degree, internship/practicum, and get licensed/certified, the career prospects in any field could change for the worse, due to factors both unforeseeable and out of one's control. There are articles out there about how IT and STEM, once considered safe bets, are becoming glutted with graduates. I guess this is the new normal.
ReplyDeleteBut there are two key differences:
Delete1. An IT/STEM degree on your resume will not make you repugnant to a lot of employers in other fields.
2. IT/STEM skills are a lot more easily transferred to other fields than legal skills.
Yep. But it is always easier to blame the victim, from what I have seen.
Deletehttp://dupednontraditional.blogspot.com/2011/09/tom-tomorrow-and-seeing-into-future.html
I think most of higher education is a scam. it used to be a high school diploma meant you knew something. not anymore. now you need to go to college to learn what you should have learned in high school plus to be indoctrinated in liberal thoughts.
Deletemy last secretary had a pharmacy tech degree. she was paid 12 bucks and hour. at another job, she had a degree in history. my favorite bar maid has a psych degree. (ok, that may be useful for her) Really? 4 years and how many thousands of dollars for 12 bucks and hr? there are not enough jobs for all the liberal art majors. and then when they cant get a job in their field they double down for an advanced degree.
Its very similar to the law school scam. the schools probably don't lie as much about the job prospects for liberal art majors. I don't know. maybe they do. but the schools definitely make money of kids who job future is bleak.
it really comes down to the fed gov giving money away indiscriminately. its best left to private lenders who wont get supported by the gov if kids don't pay back their loans. They are not going to lend money to 40000 law students when there are only jobs for a small portion of them. same with teachers, art history majors, basket weaving, etc.
Maybe my memory is faulty but when I was applying to law schools in the early 1980s I don't think there were employment stats. I think that's still the case with undergrad degrees for the most part.
DeleteA friend's daughter is going to Seton Hall's diplomacy school this fall as a freshman. Didn't know SH had one of those so I looked it up. Founded 1999 - younger than she is. Then did some checking and found out the U.S. has fewer than 16,000 foreign service officers including some foreign nationals and many specialists - people with specific skills unrelated to diplomacy. If you don't pass the test you can't be hired no matter whether you have a degree in diplomacy. If you do pass the test they still don’t have to hire you, and you are competing with people from well-established undergraduate and graduate programs at competitive schools like George Washington, Georgetown and Tufts as well as people with friends in Washington. What’s more you don’t need a degree in diplomacy to take the test at all, so the applicant pool is unlimited. I don’t recall ever hearing about the government bemoaning a lack of qualified candidates.
How much selling do you have to do to convince a starry-eyed 18-year-old B student from a 400 student high school in a small town that she has what it takes to beat out thousands of other people, most smarter and better qualified than herself, and have a career in diplomacy?
8:03 is right, it will go on until the loan tap is turned off.
8:03AM, there is a happy medium.
DeleteOn the one end of the HE scam, we have law schools - top end professional graduate programs that cost six figures and take three years of hard work, all for no jobs.
On the other end, we have the idiot online degrees in pharmacy tech and paralegal studies and criminal justice, all of which cost lots of money but can at least be done at home. But these degrees have no value either, and nor do degrees from any for-profit college.
Then in the middle, whether we like it or not, we have the good bachelors degrees - STEM, rigorous liberal arts, foreign languages etc. from well-known real colleges that aren't "party" schools. Not that these will lead to great jobs, but they will lead to a brighter mind than before in many cases with diligent study.
Don't fall into the trap of valuing ALL higher education in monetary terms. For the shitty online degrees that claim you'll earn $75K as a homeland security manager or something dumb like that, or for law degrees - note the common thread that these degrees are being SOLD to students on the basis of post-grad employment - then it's okay to value them in terms of increased or decreased earnings. But for the better bachelors degrees, they do actually have a value beyond how much the grad can earn, and they generally aren't marketed in terms of how much more you'll earn.
Yes it would be wonderful if we all learned this shit in high school and didn't need to go to college, but that's not the world we live in right now. And this blog should be concerned with reality, not pretend made-up shit - the shoulda woulda coulda stuff.
" There are articles out there about how IT and STEM, once considered safe bets, are becoming glutted with graduates. I guess this is the new normal."
DeleteThey have actually been in full supply for a number of years; all of those articles about the alleged shortage are no more honest than law school bilge.
"Don't fall into the trap of valuing ALL higher education in monetary terms"
Deletewhen my tax dollars are supporting higher education I do look at things in terms of monetary value. my state spend over 170 dollars per person on higher education. federal tax dollars are supporting the loan scam.
we spend a lot of dollars for a bar maid to be able to quote shakesperean prose. if the jobs are not there, neither should my tax dollars. if she really wants that rigorous liberal arts degree, let her pay for it.
I am pretty supportuive of most STEM degrees. There is a need and value for most of them. I think banks would be willing to invest in someone getting a stem degree from a decent school. But the country probably doesn't need another barista with an eng lit degree.
The only jobs that are safe are the big city, ie Chicago, Boston, NYC, and LA, politically protected jobs, ie cops, firemen, sometimes teachers, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc.
ReplyDeleteNothing else is good anymore, but law is especially bad for all of the reasons discussed above.
i'm not sure why you think building trade jobs are safe. It doesn't take a lot of skill to bang a hammer and with 11 million illegals in this country, the wages are seriously depressed there too. I would say half the people working on houses around my neighborhood came from south of the border.
DeleteMy father used to work for a company that gave each employee a gold watch when they completed 50 years of employment, holding a little ceremony for each one. By the early sixties they realized that more and more people had finished high school starting back in the 1910s and 1920s and therefore started working at 18. Thus when they retired at 65 they hadn't finished the 50 years for a watch. The policy was changed to make it a watch at 45 years and they gave out so many watches at once they had to bag the ceremonies because it would have affected productivity. In one case they left the guy a note saying his watch was in the upper right hand corner of his desk.
DeleteThose days are gone forever.
The skilled/licensed trades like electricians and plumbers, where the unions largely control entry into the trade, are in good shape. Note that, unlike law schools and the legal profession, unions are exempt from anti-trust laws. And the non-union operators essentially piggyback on the unions' keeping the numbers down, knowing a good deal when they see one.
DeleteIn my state the semi-skilled/unskilled unions (carpenters, roofers, etc.) lost any principles they had about working non-union in the late 1980s real estate collapse.
It's true that trades like roofing, hanging Sheetrock and rough carpentry can be done by anyone, but I worked in the trades both before and after law school. It takes real skill and/or experience to be a finish carpenter or a HVAC technician or a plumber or an electrician. I respect those guys. They could do twice as good a job as me in 1/3rd the time.
DeleteIf you have a semi-decent head for business and possess thesse types of skills, you can make decent money. For example, if you have experience working on German cars, you can charge a good bit less than the dealership. I'm not suggesting you'll get rich, but you can make good money repairing cars if you have a head for it.
and I live in the upper Midwest, not a southern border state
DeleteThat poster doesn't seem to be talking about just "bang[ing] a hammer"; he/she seems to be referring to the skilled trades. Those are very different, usually require years of training and/or experience, and can't simply be filled by some random person off the street.
DeleteOh fuck not the "we should all be cops" bullshit again.
DeleteYou do realize that when even the shittiest police department opens up hiring for five or ten new cops, it literally gets thousands of applications? That's ten times harder to get into than Biglaw. Planning on getting a job as a cop or firefighter is far more retarded than planning on Biglaw - the odds are just crazy and getting a cop job makes getting a job at Skadden look easy.
And go up the scale from your shitty local PD to anything in a decent metro area, or at the state level, or at the federal level, and you're literally talking about tens of thousands of applicants for a handful of positions.
And without a spotless background, military service, a college degree, and so on, you don't stand a chance of making even the first cut.
Sorry. If you haven't been planning on being a cop since you were like five years old, you won't make it. Stick with law school and roll the dice on Biglaw instead.
you sound like the aba when you say skilled trades require years to training and/or experience. I spent many years in a auto manufacturing plant with skilled UAW tradesman. within a year from graduating engineering school I could do 90 percent of what any electrician, mill wright, hydraulic repairman, etc could do. The only thing I really couldn't do was weld. I just never got enough practice doing it.
Deleteit takes years because that is what the union cartel wants you to believe.
I take your point but I still maintain that some trades like finish carpentry require artisanship and skills that do take years of experience to properly master. It is a little like law. I do patent work and there's no way someone can make it out of law school as a patent attorney; you need years of mentoring to become competent.
DeleteAnd some car work, like properly diagnosing a check engine light fault, can require some pretty decent troubleshooting skills. A modern car's electronic control systems is similar to a refinery. You need to understand the components and how they work together.
And I totally get that not everyone can be a cop or city worker. Hell, where I grew up you had to be politically connected and do favors for local politicians to get a cop of a firefighter job.
@9:17,
DeleteBullshit. This bullshit has to stop if we are going to put people back on the right track. Less than half of NYPD officers have a 4 year college degree and less than 10% served in the military:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pr/pr_2012_police_officer_graduation_2012_12_28.shtml
This is how asshole law professors are getting away with robbing the tax payer and ruining the lives of millions of students. The arrogant and disgusting undertone of their statements always carries the implication: what else would these fucking proles do with their 3.3 GPAs and 155 LSATs? I promise you that a college graduate with those stats will easily blow through the overwhelming portion of the competition in getting these jobs (if they dont lose their political protection by getting too much education). Numbers are not in a fucking vacuum, yeah 20000 people take the test, but the overwhelming majority of them could not crack a 140 on the LSAT. I suggest you search for a sample entrance exam to see the guy of remedial things are asked on the entrance exam, which forms the main basis for getting a job like this (again, less than 10% have military experience, before some asshole tries to play that card).
The only caveat is your criminal record has to be totally clean, which isnt a problem for most people going to LS. Although I know many people on the job who comitted felonies, they just never got caught ( I suppose a few lawyers and everything else fall into that category though).
That is just the NYPD as an example, and there are other jobs too: city plumber, fireman, electrician, and for those jobs, you do not even have the heightened background check.
I know for a fact though that if you have too much education, you are dinged because they dont want the people you work with to hate you. Someone with a GED is going to be intimated working with someone with a doctoral level education. Dont lose your political protection via education.
These guys and gals arent making six figure pensions and salaries just cause their jobs are important, they get it because its politically correct and beneficial to protect them. In the process of the politicians and society doing this, we loose sight of reality and we have people boldly stating that you need military experience and a college degree to get a fucking job that requires nothing more than a bare minimimum, and I do mean bare minimum, physcial fitness, a high score on a test which makes anything your average law student encounters look like a fucking joke, and a clean criminal record.
Then, once everyone believes that shit, the Leiters of the world malignly laugh in the face of 22 year olds with average LSATs and GPAs, and tell them "what else are you going to do but give me 200k in nondischargeable debt money, while gambling your life in the process, in the hopes of being the 5% that gets to joins the Big Law gulag for 3 years."
If we want to win this war, you need to have an answer, and the answer is that any kid with average college grades and an average LSAT is going to get a politically protected municipal job (assuming a clean background) in a big city if he or she puts the same effort into that as going to a LS toilet, even if there are 20000 applicants with 80 IQS and a college degree. Its not politically correct, but its true, and we are not going to win unless this reality and these already mentioned alternatives are not presented to starry eyed victims before they roll the dice on the higher ed casino (which will strip them of political protection, in addition to ruining them financially).
at 23, my cousin in law became a fire man at a small suburban fire dept. he has been volunteering there since he was 18. his dad and the fire chief are deacons at the same church. he has an uncle in the dept. his connections trump your experience, degree, etc.
Deleteim sure there were better qualified people out there, but some times it doesn't matter
@11:28,
DeleteI said big cities. In big cities, New York, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc, connections matter far less. You have to fit a profile. If you fit the profile and have high test scores, you can get the job. Sometimes, its not the case, like some of the trade unions that do both public and private work. Nevertheless, other jobs arent about connections, but profile.
Moreover, in cases where connections matter, get the connections. How many times do I see ads, articles, professor statements, etc. Telling 250k debt slaves to go volunteer for experience? If a debt slave at 25 can volunteer for experience, then a 22 year old can go volunteer at the firehouse or whatever to get into a protected job.
You want answers to Leiter and Co.'s smug little question: what else were you going to do but LS? This is it. Otherwise, lets close up shop here folks. If there really is nothing else, then whats the point of this blog? The only answer for your average liberal artist is rolling the dice at the higher education casino. Right? Most dont have the aptitude for STEM, and even if they did, its getting outsourced and insourced at incredible levels (trust me, I know).
So, from what I am hearing, STEM is too tough to begin with (and not that good in reality, for those of us who know), trying to build connections at 22, with minimal debt, to get a politically protected job is impractical, and taking a test designed that is easier than an 8th grade English test is simialrly impractical.
Apparently then, the answer is LS and then serfdom. Reality, however, is far different for those that care to listen.
11:28, while he was in middle school a childhood neighbor became interested in firefighting. His parents were horrified, wanting him to go to college, so they made a deal. College first and then choose your own path. He went to a very selective college and then became a firefighter. And guess what? He is now chief of the fire department in a wealthy college town where he makes over $150,000.00 plus great benefits and a retirement coming from heaven. His department is big enough that the chief need not run into any burning buildings unless he happens to pass one while driving by.
DeleteWhy, you ask? Because 11:01 is right. He had 20 IQ points on 95% of the competition and blew all the promotion exams out of the water. He had zero political support, his parents, though they eventually came around, absolutely did not want him to pursue that career.
When I was a kid I too thought firefighting was very cool, but I felt I should pursue a more prestigious career. I am doing okay but my neighbor has a better job than I do and better benefits and he looks forward to going to work.
@ 11:01,
DeleteExactly. There are still some good ways to make a living in politically protected jobs. I hate that this is true, but we have to work with the system we have.
Much of the misinformation out there is based on "conventional wisdom" which is actually dead wrong. The general public (especially high school teachers and counselors) think any job that requires physical labor pays poorly while a job at a desk with a suit pays well.
Not a knock on cops, but I have seen some overweight and barely literate cops testify in DUI/traffic cases, and I am pretty sure the public defender could have easily outperformed any of them on the police entrance exam. Alas, he makes far less than the cops do, and he will never be politically protected, because people hate lawyers and think they are all rich.
so the moral of the story is that some people can become successful fire chiefs and some people can become successful attorneys. But most who try either profession wont.
Delete@ 1:58,
DeleteNo, you are not getting away with this bull shit. The moral of the story is that your average prospective law student would be better served trying to become a fireman, cop, or tradesmen in a big city or rich town/suburb because 1) the consequences of failing if you pursue those careers is small in comparison to the hell of the higher education casino, 2) the rewards are very high, if you compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, and are far superior to anything you will likely have as an attorney EVEN IF you get big law, and 3) its probably easier to get one of these jobs than having the credentials of an average law student (see the NYPD stats above: 60% dont have a Bachelor's degree and less than 10% served in the military (six figure salary, retirement at 45 and health care for life, and that this is one example.)
@1:58
DeleteThe difference is that the firefighter who doesn't become fire chief can still continute to earn a living as a firefighter.
The associate who doesn't make partner will be shown the door to make room for hordes of new law school grads.
The median graduate from the police academy will still become a cop and have a viable career with job security.
The median graduate from any law school outside the T14 will struggle to find work as a lawyer and will certainly never have serious job security as a lawyer.
the city of Detroit is looking to hire 60 new police officers at 15 bucks an hour. however, you have to fit the minority profile.
Deleteof course they will probably receive 1000's of apps for those 60 jobs.
@11:00,
DeleteNice, but Im not going to let people get away with this shit anymore. 1) Thanks for picking the worst city in America right now in a pathetic attempt to refute my point. LAPD, NYPD, and Boston PD, to name a few, pay considerably more than that. However, the fact that a BANKRUPT city is willing to pay even this much speaks volumes. 2) Is this starting pay? If it is, that is not bad for a 20 year old kid with no debt. I know 25 year old professionals with 200k of debt making less. 3) Most jobs have thousands of applicants nowadays. Thousands of people compete for Biglaw every year or for high level Federal jobs. However, what do you think the 1000 applicants for that job will look like? It will not be people of the same caliber as an average law student. The nypd pays six figures, people retire at 45 with six figure pensions and health care for life, and less than half of the people have 4 year degrees and less than 10% have military service. I would wager that the less than 100 applicants for thwt job will have any college education and/or military service. A 22 year old capable of getting into a T3 and possessing a college degree will easily blow through that competition. 4) In summary, that job, which is at the lowest end of the politically protected jobs, is easier to get than a shitlaw job, likely pays more than a shit law job, does not have the same opportunity cost associated with a shit law job, cant ruin your life if you dont get it (unlike LS and shitlaw), and is more secure with better long term prospects than a shit law job.
Thanks for playing. There are other options out there kids. Politicians will have your back if you do the right thing. Drop out while there is still time.
there are 60 jd advantage jobs in Detroit. if someone is interested, here is information on how to apply including salary info.
Deletehttp://www.detroitmi.gov/DepartmentsandAgencies/PoliceDepartment/PoliceCareer.aspx
Good luck.
I just wonder how many law grads have what it takes to be a cop. Not a meter maid, but a really cop that has to physically take down bad guys and gets shot at.
regarding NY, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with its financials and tell me if you think the police and fire departs are going to be paying as well in the near future or if the benefits will be as good. Im guessing not.
but at the end of the day, I think you and I agree that almost no one should go to law school.
@12:48,
DeleteIf a bankrupt city can afford 15 bucks an hour, the bigger and more important cities will keep up the pay as well. In NY, NYPD does not even make the most, Suffolk and Nassau cops make 160-250k. Moreover, cops are just one example. There are other lucrative and high paying jobs in both in NY and other secure cities and rich towns.
With respect to the "what it takes," I know 5 guys on the force right now. Two guys are real bad asses, the other 3 were guys that got picked on regularly in high school (one of them is fat and has a desk job). Moreover, with only 10% having prior military service, the stats dont support your implicit argument that they are looking for bad asses.
i'm not going to let you get away with telling people that they have a chance to become a police officer and make 250k a year.
Deleteyou cant look at the top 1/2% of the cops who "work" 500 hours of overtime and make excessively high salaries and extrapolate that to the other 99.5% who make much less. you seriously sound like the law school deans. When all the jd's join the force and make much less, what do you say then? Is there fault for not networking enough to get into NYC and get 500 hours OT? Is it their fault that they only get a job in Detroit and make 30k a year?
average salaries of cops across the country is much less. look it up yourself. go ahead.
I would agree that their a lot fewer financial casualties in people becoming police officers or failing to become a police officer, but I have worked with many young attorneys that have done better than the average cop. and yes I am aware many have not done as well.
ps
At the end of fiscal year 2011, New York City reached a milestone: the amount of debt outstanding passed $100 billion. As total debt outstanding has grown - by 83 percent since 2002 - the forms of debt the City issues have also diversified. This growth affects the city budget in the form of higher debt service costs, which are projected to be 10 percent of the city’s expense budget by 2015.
how much longer do you think new York police officers are going to be collecting what they collect now. Chicago and new York will probably be in bankruptcy soon too,
I am calling bullshit. I practice in the city and have a friend and brother in law in the NYPD. My brother in law makes $50,000 but works nights and overtime. Many of his fellow officers in 5 years make only $40,000, the same amount that I made in my first year of solo practice. As mentioned, the benefits and pensions are shrinking and the political winds are trending toward a streamlined police force because of low crime and budget problems and a likely democrat mayor in November. Just like STEM, healthcare, etc., none of the magic careers are easy to enter or safe in the long-term. Grass is always greener - right?
Delete@5:34,
DeleteNot true, after 5 years base pay is over 90k: http://www.nypdrecruit.com/benefits-salary/overview
Maybe your brother in law makes 50k after taxes and 401k contribution.
If you read this page and cannot figure out how much they actually get paid, as in actual take home pay, there is no hope for this conversation. My military war veteran bro-in-law who is intelligent, has been promoted quickly, and works shitty hours and overtime makes $50K. And he is one of a very select group of people to make it as a cop. As someone else mentioned, the police forces do not take 27-year-old JDs unless they have a family connection. They take people who have prepared for being a cop since they were 11 years old.
DeleteAdam,
DeleteThe base compensation is 90k. When we talk about big law, we say associates make 160k. We dont figure out their tax liability to try and see what they actually take home. Moreover, I have never heard of anyone not getting at least 10k of overtime.
Now, I am not advocating that 27 year old JDs apply to become cops, as at that point, its too difficult. (Although the stats do show they take a very small number of people). I disagree with you that the reason that they dont take people has to do with a lack of direction. A solid 60% of the guys I know just fell into the job after college or HS, they did not plan on it for life. I believe if you are overeducated, they find a way to ding you at some point because they dont want you clashing with the majority of your counterparts who dont have a 4 year degree.
It doesnt matter though who is right on why they wont take a 27 year old JD. This advice is for 0Ls. Im targeting the 21 or 22 year old that wants to go to LS. The core of the scam, and check out some of Leiter and Co's comments to confirm this, is convincing 0Ls they have no other choice but going to LS (I think one of these guys basically said something like that when some states came out from LST, ie "what else can these kids do." Showing 0Ls other options, particularly outside of higher education, is key to beating these guys.
We have to show 0Ls the truth about conventional wisdom, which not only states lawyers make bank, but blue collar people dont. With respect to the latter point, I can tell you that that it just isnt true (in the big cities and rich towns); and your average 22 0L can easily get these jobs ( the key is not fucking up and wasting time and getting over-credentialed in the higher ed casino).
It has been my observation that special snowflakes do not think they can beat the odds but rather that they are wholly above the odds.
ReplyDeleteWhat is super frustrating when talking to prospective students is explaining that they honestly have no way of predicting their class rank at most schools.
DeleteAt my "prestigious" trap school(ranked ~30 USNWR), the student body has a super narrow GPA/LSAT range. Competing for grades is a zero-sum game, and you are up against people with almost identical talent and work ethic. Add in the arbitrary and capricious nature of exam grading, and you would be crazy to attend a tier 1 school thinking, "I will be in the top ___ percent."
Hmmm. Yeah, I'll go with that too. These retards literally think that if they believe in themselves (i.e. that they are the only factor that's important), they'll succeed. They don't think in terms of odds, gambling, or anything like that. There is no logic. It's almost supernatural in its underpinnings, and for it to come true all that is needed is belief.
DeleteBut then again, that's how churches make their money. Scamming people into believing that some illogical higher power that defies math and science will protect them and bestow bounty upon them. There's a thousand suckers born every minute.
"Wanting people to listen, you can't just tap them on the shoulder anymore. You have to hit them with a sledgehammer, and then you'll notice you've got their strict attention."
Delete---Seven---
It's the same with special snowflakes. They have to be told; DO. NOT. GO. It is unequivocally a mistake.
We can't win by convincing one snowflake at a time, although that is a necessary part of the cause. The rot must be detroyed at the roots. The law school brand must be destroyed.
And we are succeeding. We have all the facts on our side. As the truth continues to get out, the scam deans and the trick ponies like the ABA are forced to resort to more and more desperate claims like the "JD advantage" myth.
Since the facts are not on their side, it becomes a relatively easy matter to tear apart weak papers like the Simkovich article.
And man, this guy Leiter. It almost reads like defamation, the type of nasty comments he spews about guys like Campos and Tannenaha. Don't know what his beef is; he's not going anywhere.
At the same time we need to continue anecdotal posts. Nothing puts an uneasy feeling in a Lemming's stomach like a real life example of the scam in action.
Dupednontraditional your story is mine here in 2013. I was able to practice for a couple of years before being laid off from a small law firm. Its good to see you taking time to save others from this disaster that is law school. Good post. Amazing that 21 people would pay for an unaccredited law school. Maybe its time to do a series on TV of what practicing law is really about in the second decade of the 21st Century.
ReplyDeleteTV makes all legal work look glamorous. My wife watches a show with attorneys who do routine family law and small-time personal injury...but they all have fancy biglaw-style offices, multiple well-paid secretaries, and a steady stream of clients walking in the door willing to pay whatever the lawyers charge.
DeleteThey all drive nice cars, don't worry about money, and have time for interesting social lives. Oh, and they only take the cases they believe in.
Who wouldn't want to live that life?
If Indiana Tech really could place unemployed lawyers in jobs, they would do a great business. People would break down the doors to go there. Even if it were a 6 month training course, if it led to a job, people want it.
ReplyDeleteAnother point. I know lots of recent college grads with good jobs. Maybe not everyone everywhere gets a great job. If you are at the bottom of the class at a low ranked college or are in a rural area, maybe there will not be opportunities. However, for the reasonably smart and attractive grad of a good college who lives in an urban area, there are likely to be good jobs using a college degree.
" However, for the reasonably smart and attractive grad of a good college who lives in an urban area, there are likely to be good jobs using a college degree."
ReplyDeleteThat's not a strong statement.
There are post college jobs out there. No one I know in the New York metropolitan area is unemployed or has a bad job - like working retail - or a job that a high school student normally do part-time.
DeleteIf you are in rural Florida, there are very few jobs other than retail. It is a matter of where you live.
so what is the over under as to how many students really show up to class on the first day?
ReplyDeleteI am guessing 15 actually show up. and ten of them drop out soon after. what a faculty to student ratio they will have
are any of the faithful readers close enough to the campus to go there?
I would love to see someone just walk in there and look at a classroom mid-semester, just to see how many students are there.
DeleteI bet that of the twenty enrolled, half will drop out when they realize that it's a TOILET!
For those who focus on hip hop law and certain threads of feminism, theory is practice.
ReplyDeleteAs long as someone else if footing the bill that is.
Even 40 years ago there were probably 150 or so law schools. But most would have been small, modest and cheap, with faculty who had actually practiced as lawyers and who spent most of their time teaching. But like that John Marshall school mentioned in the previous post, most of them went big and expensive and took to hiring professional academics who spend a lot of time publishing (mostly worthless) scholarship.
ReplyDeleteThe apparent failure of Indiana though marks the high tide mark of this model. They built a luxurious law school, space for hundreds of students, hired prestigious professional academics - and have hardly been able to attract any applicants. It doesn't help that they are charging $30k or so per year and claiming this is "affordable".
Of course there is no need for any more law schools, but imagine if they had decided to make it small, modest and charge less than $10k per year. That would have been truly innovative.
Inspired post.
ReplyDeleteVery nice work, duped.
ReplyDeleteMy letter to Indiana Tech would be two words long. But I think the subtlety of this is far more artful, and indeed reflects your superior legal education well.
Kids, if you want to write snarky satirical blogposts like this one, you'll need to go to law school. Duped did, and he wrote it, so obviously law school did the trick.
I am a high school teacher in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Indiana Tech is a decent tech school; it is not a university. I tell my students who want to study the tech/vocational subjects to go to Ivy Tech, a state college with a very good reputation and very low tuition. They have a campus in Fort Wayne. For those who want to study more intellectual subjects, IU and Purdue have a campus here, and very low tuition. Why go to a place like Indiana Tech that no one outside Fort Wayne has heard of and pay the outrageous tuition??
ReplyDeleteWhen I heard that they were opening a law school, I damn near fell on the floor laughing. Why the Hell would anyone go to a tech school for a law degree when you can go to Indiana University in Bloomington or Indianapolis (IU has a law school at both of those campuses) and earn a law degree from a nationally known university with a well-regarded law school at half the tuition? Bloody insane.
Fort Wayne is a mid-size city with virtually no decent jobs. I love teaching; I'm making a difference in the lives of my students. It is also heartbreaking though. I make more money than 90% of my students' parents make. I'm not getting rich, but I do make a good middle class income. The thing is, this place is a $7 an hour economy. Very few jobs in this city pay much more. The cost of living is very low here. You can buy a very nice house in a nice neighborhood for $90,000. Seriously! Its one of the few good things here, but even an inexpensive apartment here is unaffordable on the wages most employers here pay.
Schools like Indiana Tech take advantage of the fears of people who are desperate to find something that will give them a decent life. They do have a beautiful new building. Cost a lot of money!