Thursday, February 28, 2013

JD Disadvantage

My take on the Law School Scam obviously comes from a non-traditional, so-called “JD advantage” point of view, but these warnings apply regardless of whether one is a non-trad or a K-JD.  And while I agree with the calls for more “direct action” and not sounding like a broken record, as advanced by other scamblog advocates, it is still important to keep the arguments alive (and the webcount increasing) on the internet.

As one poster once said, it is akin to tobacco warnings – you have to keep saying them, again and again, to get the message out.  There are always new people who haven’t heard the message.  And there are those who have heard it, who need to hear it again.   And again. 

My experience has taught me that there is no such thing as “JD Advantage.”  I say this even as someone who has been working in a so-called “JD-preferred” field, with my bar license, ever since I graduated in 2005.
 
As a non-trad, I wasn’t trying to score BigLaw – I knew that ship had sailed by virtue of not having been born a K-JD.  I wasn’t trying to be a balls-to-the-wall, shingle-hanging, entrepreneurial gunslinger advocate, either…some people are, some people aren’t, and I would say non-trads are split, at best, on this particular career aspiration.  Thus, the strawman arguments from the schadenfreudic haters of “you didn’t have what it takes,” or “you just didn’t try hard enough,” or “you were just wanted to be a rich, bigshot lawyer and you failed, so it’s all your fault” didn’t apply to me.  The fundamental assumptions behind these trollish accusations have been and continue to be false.  I was more self-aware than these simplistic views allow, and I wasn’t even trying to go down those paths in the first place.  But haters gonna hate, trolls gonna troll, and shills gonna shill, as we all know.

What I did do, unfortunately, was buy into the lie that a JD would be an asset to the other credentials and work experience that I already had, or that a legal education was a valuable proposition in the marketplace in its own right.  That it would be useful in landing contract management/contract administration jobs.  Or compliance positions that leveraged my prior experience.  Or consulting positions.  Or ADR-related industries. 

“Why of course it is, and more so,” replied the sparkling-eyed, smiling, Law School Administrators and Deans.  “Look at what our grads have gone on to do!  Read the testimonitals and brochures!  Look at our employment statistics!  Now, sign here.”

DJM did a nice piece on this, and it bears a second (or third, or fourth…) look.  Suffice it to say that employers of legally-related positions do not seek JD applicants, as ironic or as paradoxical as it initially sounds.  It is, in fact, quite difficult to convince employers that a JD is valuable – trust me, I know and I tried - I had, and still have (by the grace of God), a family to support.  And the pay you do get is not commensurate with the sticker-cost of a JD, let me assure anyone who would claim any hypocrisy on my part.

With 20/20 hindsight, the truth is that, considering my high undergrad GPA but modest LSAT score, the nature of my application overall, and my background at the time, an honest applications committee would have said “look, we like what we see here, but let’s engage in some full disclosure – what you are looking for is not what a JD provides, nor is it intended to do so in the final analysis.  This does not go where you think it goes, and we feel as though we have a duty to respectfully say so in the interest of fair warning.  Thank you for thinking of us, but you would be better served looking at other alternatives.” 

And I would have thanked them for it.  Trusting people “in the know” concerning the career field in question seems quaint, I suppose.  Perhaps the T14 do indeed have such scruples, but I did not apply to the T14 (assuming I could even get in) because I was not looking to completely uproot my life.  Neither was I seeking the paper-chase of prestige (see BigLaw discussion above).  I was looking for a credential, not unlike my prior experiences with higher education.  But did I get full disclosure?  No.  Never.  Everyone I applied to said “Come on board!  Your JD and your career aspirations await!”  Why?  Because it is about "getting them to sign on the line that is dotted."  That is all.

Thus, when I look at the NALP website and their canned JD-advantage success stories, or the hand-waving of Law School Deans on the same subject, I see red.  JDs are over-priced, under-delivering degrees for many, financed by student loans, and the law school cartel has no business touting JDs as a route to positive, alternative careers.  As always, it works for a few, and law schools are happy to claim credit and ride the coat-tails of their handful of "successful" graduates.  But for most, the cost does not justify the so-called benefit.  Better to just go do a job direct, no questions asked, than to get the JD and subsequently get turned down as a over-educated flight-risk, or to end up doing the job for less take-home pay than the co-worker who isn't basking in all the wonderous advantages of the JD.

Don't do what I did.  Don't believe in "JD Advantage".  It is a bait-and-switch ploy, pure and simple, in the line of LLMs and other scholastic revenue generators.  For those of us who actually have to work for a living, at non-professorial, non-Dean rates of pay, it's a sucker's bet. 

37 comments:

  1. Rutgers plans to merge its law campuses. This is the face-saving move that Campos and so many commentors predicted. Troubled law schools will begin merging, only for efficiency sake, mind you. Doing it for the students. Not because they're on the verge of insolvency. Closures eventually will occur. That will be a wonderful day!

    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20130228_Rutgers_plans_to_merge_its_law_schools.html


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    1. Yes. It will be a great day because all of your failures will be erased if a school employing hundreds of people has close. That will validate your failures as a lawyer and you'll be able to feel so much better about yourself. It was the fault of the school, not the fact that you went to a shitty school.

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    2. Or the school manipulated numbers like a used car salesman to make the school not look shitty to get you on the hook for a six figure non dischargeable debt.

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    3. No, seriously! What if they conmen lose their jobs?!

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  2. You make some good points. First of all, yes you are right about not letting this message die. I do not believe that everything has been said that needs to be said. The message needs to be said every day, over and over, just like the warnings on cigarette packets. As soon as the message gets stale, people will start to think that it is no longer dangerous.

    Second, your analysis of the myth of JD advantage is spot on. There is no such thing. If anything, JD advantage jobs are really the reverse, and like you say the law schools are riding the coattails of those lucky folk working outside the law by claiming that the law degree had something to do with it.

    The JD advantage category needs to renamed to something like "Employed in spite of JD". And furthermore law schools need to stop recruiting unsuitable students who they know do not want to be lawyers via this bullcrap JD advantage myth. It is a crime. To recruit unsuspecting people who want to go into law is one thing, but to recruit people with no intention of practicing law by claiming that the JD is good for many different careers is plain fraud.

    I like your style dupednontraditional.

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  3. Whoever is reposting comments from here over at inside the law school scam needs to stop. That site is dead. If you are interested in furthering the discussion then please put some time and effort supporting this site, not keeping ITLSS on life support.

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  4. Over 1500 page views!

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  5. You are Dead on. The small firm I work at said part time, I'm a 3L, said i can stay on as a law clerk after the bar and get more responsibilities well see what happens from there. Now I was wondering what my school count me as? Well I won't be a lawyer so I won't fall into the full time legal job category. I will fall into the Jd Advantage category though. I will be essentially underemployed law grad or JD advantage.

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  6. Close friend of ours was a paralegal in a firm downtown. Got it into his head to get a JD and license. Told him not to. He did it anyway, living the life for 3 years. Now... can't hardly find a entry level attorney position. Poor guy.

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  7. I second this.

    JD Advantage job (government, banking, compliance, consulting, etc.) was my dream gig going into law school. I didn't want to be a litigator, per se, but I had analytical skills and I got sold on law school being able to go with the 4 years of post-BA experience I had.

    Wrong. top 10% grad at a 40-75 USNWR school. ZERO interest from any non-attorney positions over the last year and a half. ZERO. I used to work in a bank. Will banks interview me for compliance? NO. Will accounting firms interview me as a consultant? NO. Law firm interviews I have little problem getting, relatively speaking.

    But kids, the non-law JD Advantage employer is a myth for 95% of graduates. There are very few positions and fewer employers where the JD is a desired credential that don't involve sluggishly walking into court in a JC Penney suit. Very few.

    I know one (1) person from law school class and one (1) from another who have analyst-type gigs. A guy in the same boat as me - never wanting to practice, just wanting something better in business/govt - just started his own law firm because the market is so dead. A lot of the people celebrated by deans didn't really want to wind up where they are.

    That's the reality, kids.

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  8. Anyone feel up to writing a response to Leiter's recent entry on Campos' retirement?

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    1. Er, "Fuck you Leiter"?

      But in all seriousness, it was a bit like Leiter dancing on a grave. Too early, it seems. Campos has now moved into another higher realm, as a spirit, someone who has reached Nirvana, a superbeing, posting under the LawProf Blogger ID (see below) as he sees fit, in multiple sites. How awesome is that!

      Leiter is welcome nowhere. LawProf is a god everywhere. And now it's like he's Neo in the Matrix and sees everything and can go anywhere through the telephone. Fucking cool!

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    2. Where is Leiter's BS? I'd like to take a look.

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    3. His lies can be seen here:

      http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leiter/2013/02/paul-camposs-final-bit-of-revisionist-history.html

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    4. You can't win, Leiter. If you strike Campos down, he will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

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    5. Anyone have a decent response to Leiter's bullshit? One thing (of many things) that this blog could be is a watch dog site for all of the bullshit spewed by law schools and their apologists.

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  9. I want to thank whoever started this project, and to encourage commenters at ITLSS to both comment here, and to contribute posts of their own.

    I'd also like to make clear that I'm going to continue to write and speak on this subject in many different venues. I'll drop in here from time to time as well.

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    1. Oh my fucking god are you kidding me! This is the best day I've had for weeks! LawProf is still alive!

      No, I'm not joking. I'm 100% serious. I'm like Mary Magdalene, except not a hooker. I saw him first!

      First!

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    2. Its good to hear.

      Blogging each and everyday is really too much for anyone to expect. Many people already suggested that you should cut down to maybe a couple posts a month and to allow others to post as well. Now with OTLSS, this can be accomplished.

      Glad to know you'll still be around from time to time.

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    3. It's our pleasure. You're welcome here at any time. What you've done for law school reform is extraordinary, unprecedented, and might never be repeated. You're a class act, LawProf.

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    4. The torch has been passed. A humbling and proud moment for us all.

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    5. LawProf, Godspeed to you in your endeavors. And thanks for your encouraging post. I'm just glad to hear you haven't been silenced. I worried for a while when I saw that ITLSS will now only accept comments from google users.

      IMO this site has the potential to become the ATL of scamblogs (multiple contributors covering various aspects of the law school scam and the crumbling legal profession). And I really like the idea of a post re: Leiter's bullshit grave dancing.

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  10. Excellent advice, dupednontraditional. Although I'm looking for ways in which we can take this to the next level through activism, I think you're 100% correct in pointing out that this message cannot be repeated often enough. This is an ongoing issue. There are new undergrads each day who are waking up and thinking, "Hmmmm, perhaps I should go to law school?" And it's our duty to make sure that the law school scam is still a newsworthy issue, that we are still shouting our warnings, and making damn sure that this is not over.

    We've got an amazing resource that was left to us by Professor Campos. ITLSS. Those post should be brought up again and again, the message reposted, expanded upon, and shouted until we're sick of it.

    ITLSS will remain relevant. It's an amazing resource. It's our job to make sure that it never gets lost, that the message continues to reach those who have not yet heard it. It would be a crime if the end of ITLSS meant the end of scamblogging. That's what we have to preserve.

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    1. I just want to make some comments and suggestions for tactics for informing prospectives:

      1. A funny, but true, tale of an unemployed law grad could be one of those unlikely youtube hits ("The hunger games, JD edition") that get attention. Sure, the situation itself isn't funny -- but the humor gets attention, that's crucial. (But, it has to be actually funny).

      2. People should go back to your UNDERGRAD career office with your situation -- they are usually supposed to help alumni almost indefinitely. "I can't get a job with my JD, can you help me?" They may not be able to help, but your presence after so many years (and AFTER law school) may shock a few of them and prompt them to talk to undergrads on this issue. ("And by the way, if you have any undergrads wondering about prospects in the law, you can give them my contact info.")

      3. Is your law school a state school or does it get any state funding? Organize as many unemployed grads as you can and head to the state capital when the legislature is in session, hold a protest outside. Most states are having fiscal problems ... so why are they spending on state law schools that turn out unemployed grads?

      4. Make as much use of media as you can. That means the local Patch sites and local newspapers, some of them are open to readers' story ideas/letters/columns. Even if 20-somethings don't read those sites, their parents do!

      5. Getting to people early in college is key. Keep your eye out for any of these "law school career day" type events at your undergrad school (and perhaps even your high school). If they are open to anyone, go ... mingle. You're a member of the audience, ask questions such as "Exactly how many of your most recent two classes are in real law jobs?"

      If the answer is "I don't have specific figures" or some other such evasion, ask "Why not? Didn't you think this information would be relevant to people considering attending your law school?"

      7. Another way is through student media. Contact the newspaper at your undergrad school, ask, do they publish letters or columns from alumni? Submit something along these lines:

      University of Rochester
      http://www.campustimes.org/2013/02/28/law-school-still-worth-it-if-all-things-considered-2/

      Brown
      http://www.browndailyherald.com/2013/02/07/editorial-law-school-doesnt-pass-the-bar/

      Rutgers
      http://www.dailytargum.com/opinion/columnists/ben_gold/law-school-lacks-economic-payoff/article_906d9050-66ae-11e2-ae7d-0019bb30f31a.html

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  11. dupednontraditional, this is an excellent post. I'm sorry it didnt get more response. If something as good as this had been posted at ITLSS, it would have received 200 comments by now. I for one am a little disappointed in the response here. Like the other post today said, we have the expertise within ourselves to act as the authority on these issues. You demonstrated that with your post. Dont get discouraged. When I blogged I received maybe five comments at most. You are way above that. Give it time. If you build it, they will come.

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    1. People are just hearing about this blog...

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    2. Leave a link to this site everywhere that you post about law school, preferably when you say something substantive (as opposed to just dropping the link). Though some have tried to get a scamblog discussion site going (e.g. JD Junkyard) most haven't taken off because, at least up until now, ITLSS has been THE law school scam discussion site. Make this blog the new center of the movement.

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    3. ^ (11:06p) Forgot the signature. Sorry.

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  12. "But did I get full disclosure? No. Never. Everyone I applied to said 'Come on board! Your JD and your career aspirations await!' Why? Because it is about 'getting them to sign on the line that is dotted.'"

    ^^^^ 100000% this ^^^^ It is all about getting bodies in the door in 1L. And after 1L, 99 out of 100 students think that they are so far in that they should keep going until the end. They see the $40K they have sunk already and figure that they have nothing else to lose.

    Law school is more shameful than the shittiest for-profit online scamiversity. It is sales tactics all over, sleazy shiny-suited deans asking us what they can do to get us into this JD today.

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  13. I saw this comment on http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/02/law-school-are-the-wrong-people-being-discouraged/comments/page/4/#comments

    It seems pretty spot on...

    -----

    Interesting day in the blogosphere. Leiter and Horwitz make their case against Campos and neither allow for response.

    Why do they hate Campos so more much than Tamanaha? What set's Campos apart is the way that he helped expand the blame for unemployment and debt from law school administrations and deans to actual law professors, something that hadn't really been done before. The scamblogs that came before his didn't focus much on the role of professors in the scam. Campos did a lot to ruin the image of law professors in the eyes of law students past and present. He told the world that they were perpetrators of the scam but even more, he told the world that they aren't lawyers, aren't academics, and aren't qualified to teach. And it was in this context that his status as an "insider" really made a difference. It's hard to think of any way to hurt law professors more, short of actually firing them, then to tell the world that they aren't that smart and what they do isn't that important. This is why they hate him.

    Posted by: brianleitersrottingteeth | February 28, 2013 at 08:29 PM

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    1. brianleitersrottingteeth

      awesome user name

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  14. we need to swamp facebook, twitter and youtube with our message. Blogs are for readers, and the core demographic of lemmingdom are kids who only read for school assignments. Social media is how we attack. Download and analyze all the ITLSS posts, create graphics as appropriate, and then create videos with the text from ITLSS, along with graphics, and upload to youtube, then swarm all over the social media with the links.
    -unperson of ETLSS

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    1. Smartphone app. "How to get a job after law school." But it never works, because there aren't any.

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  15. Hey, let's make a Harlem Shakedown video!

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    1. Song parodies. "Caught in a bad law school."

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  16. Great post, dupednontraditional. You should write more entires re: the perceived "benefit" of the "versatile" JD.

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  17. This is a post worthy of ITLSS. Keep up this quality of work.

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