OTLSS has now been read more than four million times. The anti-scam movement certainly faces challenges, but we continue to mount a strong resistance to the law-school scam. Thanks to our readers and posters for their support.
Big cuts in government spending are already happening, and I expect the Federal Student Loan Program will be on the chopping block in the near future. Right now Florida has 11 law schools, Pennsylvania has 10, New York State has 16--I could absolutely see our current Executive Branch deciding we will allow just one law school in each of those states to participate in the Student Loan Program, and we will cap the enrollment so they can't cheat by putting 5 law school classes in one school. Once that happens, the great majority of law schools will be forced to go out of business. This model would greatly reduce the quantity, and improve the quality, of new law school grads. Perhaps they could turn the long-falling Bar Exam Pass Rate around, and eventually end the glut of lawyers! Colleges will also be removed from the Student Loan Program, while Trade Schools will be promoted and funded. Our bloated federal budget is being trimmed, a lot, and it is high time that this happened. Greedy scamsters running joke law schools should know their scam is ending, the clock is ticking down.
The loan programs for graduate school and college may well be ended, but this administration will not fund trade schools-nor should they. The post-high school scam includes those schools, too.
Right. Its all well and good to say we need training programs for people who just aren't cut out for college, but that doesn't mean trade school. It should mean apprenticeship, which is something we've known since the era of medieval guilds.
And you know what apprenticeship is? It means the trainee gets PAID, not that THEY pay. So there's no tuition to take out a loan FOR. And because the place that hires the apprentices is paying for it, they're not going to invest in apprenticeships for people they don't expect to have jobs for.
It naturally puts supply and demand in harmony. The whole reason you take on apprentices is because you're starting to contemplate retirement and need to replace yourself, OR you have more customers than you can handle and need to create more people with your skillset in order to expand.
Congrats on twelve years of exposing law schools and their greed. I started reading your blog when I was a 3L in law school, and it inspired me to re-evaluate my life after five semesters, once I realized that my scam diploma wouldn’t be worth the sheepskin it was printed on. Dropped out midway through 3L second semester, best decision I’ve ever made!
1:51 I wanted to post something about encouraging law students to drop out in the first year. I think it would actually be more effective than trying to dissuade students from initially attending. The psychological issues are different though. But why do you say that dropping out in the last semester was the best thing you ever did unless you were presented with an opportunity that you had to accept immediately? To me the damage would have been done and you may as well have stayed for the degree but not take the bar exam.
6:48, I realized that earning a J.D. (contrary to what admissions officers will tell you) is the WORST thing for your marketability. When I was speaking with employers, they told me that it wasn’t just neutral on your resume, it was an active stain of dishonor. Like a felony conviction, or listing your favorite hobby as “Torturing Small Animals.” The public are finally starting to wake up and appreciate that lawyers and their lawyerings have given this nation naught but ruin. JD-holders beware, your days are numbered!
I know someone who dropped out after 1L and moved into finance. It has really worked out well for her. What I've noticed observing this is that average people HATE lawyers and that people hiring for these "law-related" type jobs are no exception. Finishing a JD will trigger that instinctive hatred whether you ever took the bar/practiced or not. But merely having done first year doesn't seem to trigger that distaste, and they actually seem to kinda like it for whatever reason.
So I think the best time to drop out is spring 1L, after you know where you stand, but before you are obligated to pay spring semester tuition. That takes a lot of grit though. I should have done it.
The JD is almost never an advantage on a résumé for any position other than that of lawyer. For other positions, it is usually a grave disadvantage: people wonder why someone with a JD is applying for a job in another field, rather than making millions as a lawyer.
As to the commentator who said "the best time to drop out is spring 1L, after you know where you stand, but before you are obligated to pay spring semester tuition." Law schools intentionally refuse to release Fall grades until well into the Spring semester, AFTER the students have paid their tuition, bought their books, and made housing arrangements. The law schools have been scamming people for decades, they know all the tricks. When 9/10 law students realize that they didn't make the top ten percent of the class--and, for the people who say I'm not good at math, that just means you're stupid--when they realize that, the law schools have a two-fold strategy to ensure that they stick around and pay 3 full years of tuition. 1) the "sunk costs" argument, essentially saying well, you've already put in one year, you might as well stick it out and 2) "Well, so, you didn't make top 10%/Law Review but you DID make top 1/3 & Space Law Journal, so that's pretty much the same thing. And, yes, there was a real "secondary journal" about Space Law at one toilet school, for a number of years, and yes, law students really are dumb enough to think that telling an employer they graduated in the "top" 29.654 percentile of the class, and wrote for some garbage journal that literally almost no one on earth has ever heard of, will get them an amazing job like the ones portrayed on the popular TV show "Suits". If these people were smart, they wouldn't have enrolled in law school in the first place.
Note that this business of "top third" and the like carries over as well to the "rankings" of law schools: "My school is in the top 70", or "the top third". Although "top third" might not be bad at Harvard, it is functionally a condemnation almost everywhere else.
And only the flagship law review—if that—matters. The Indiana Tech Journal of Law & Hip-Hop on a résumé merely advertises a failure to make the real law review. Nobody will believe you if you claim to have turned the flagship publication down because you were truly interested in hip-hop or whatever.
Of course, if you don't make the flagship review, you can always take a leaf from the book of Lisa Turner (formerly McElroy) and flash your aristocratic pedigree by mentioning Choate and your upscale package trips…
I wish Dilbert and OG were kidding about fake law reviews, but they aren't. The only one that matters-if at all-is the school's official law review; any and all others are a bad joke-and the joke's on the participants. My law school had a series of student initiated "law reviews" in topic like foreign affairs, urban issues in the USA, etc etc. All were a bad joke, and were every bit as impressive as being in the top 4/5ths of a law school class. Listing them on a resume usually elicited a "huh?" from the interviewer who then recognized the scam and then dismissed the interviewee. And yes that's exactly what happened to fellow students participating in these canards.
Would also note-as this happened to me-often listing a JD for a non-lawyer job may get you an interview, but the question I got was "well, you're a lawyer; aren't you going to leave as soon as you find a lawyer job?" And that was the end of that interview. So yeah, it's a badge of shame for many non-legal employers.
dilbert113, you are totally right. I remember being really conflicted in the spring of 1L. I thought I was going to Kick A$$, then as the grades came in I realized I wouldn't be doing the fall 2L interviews with Biglaw. Several brave souls dropped out not knowing all their grades and I should have too. I was foolishly waiting on my contracts grade.
At the élite schools, the flagship law review will help you in fancy circles (unless you are Old Guy). Anywhere else, it just shows that you spell better than most other students in your class.
The East Bumblefuck Journal of Talmudic Sports Law just shows that you didn't make the real law review but still think that you can whore after prestige.
As poorly as it worked out for me, I'll admit that I learned a lot during the first year. I think dropping out after 1L year would've been the best possible outcome for me. And, maybe for anyone not in the top-third of the class.
The JD on a resume is not an advantage but does 2 1/2 years of law school on the resume mitigate the damage. I have no way of knowing.
10:50 I agree that dropping out during 1L is the opportune time. Then you can easily make the argument that 'it wasn't for me'. I would like to point out though that law students are going to be psychologically pressured to stay. First, chances are the student is going to make friends. And these friends are going to tell them they are giving up a golden opportunity. As far a class rank, that is true that the student should be in the upper percentiles, I would say top 15% actually. But the law schools conspire to confuse students in this regard by withholding class rank using such excuses that the information system 'lost' the data and class rank is unavailable. Or creating such large segments as to be useless such as middle 25th to 75th ranking. The only measure the student has is GPA which by itself is useless.
Law students should be aware of these tactics used to keep them in school and learn to ignore them and follow their gut instincts. It may cost some friendships but it is better than being trapped with a law degree.
I was in the top-third (top 20% or whatever, I don't remember), got a scholarship, and still don't think it was worth it. I never would have gone if I came from a better family background that actually had opportunities and tried to foster my interests.
The law school scam preys on intelligent young people from the lower classes, that just don't know better and don't have the connections to guarantee success. And you need those guarantees. Very few people make it on the edges with just ability and work ethic, if anything, those are the two least reliable indicators of success.
Congrats on 4 million readers! Thank you for using your free time to post on this blog.
The Class of 2024 employment data is trickling in. Cooley has not reported their data yet. One notorious offender, former John Marshall now UIC, has posted their data. Adding up the unemployed grads with employment status unknown results in an abysmal unemployment rate of 12% 10 months after graduation! And I’m excluding the 2% of grads who had jobs starting after March 17, 2025. The bureau of labor statistics currently reports an unemployment rate of 4.2%. But graduates of low tier law schools face unemployment rates 3 times the national average. 73% of the class obtained a FT LT job requiring bar admission. I can’t imagine Cooley will be much different.
The second tier toilet I graduated from reports an unemployment rate of 6% 10 months after graduation. Only 79% of grads obtained a FT LT job requiring bar admission. I don’t think the market has changed much since when I graduated unemployed in the mid 2000s with good grades and law review. It is hard to compare though because back then my law school claimed 99% of grads had jobs with an average private practice salary of $100k.
I fear we may see a spike in law school admissions. The economic data is not looking good. The Atlanta Fed projects negative first quarter GDP growth. A lot of college grads are struggling to find jobs. We could be looking at another large crop of unemployed liberal arts grads turning to law school.
Big cuts in government spending are already happening, and I expect the Federal Student Loan Program will be on the chopping block in the near future. Right now Florida has 11 law schools, Pennsylvania has 10, New York State has 16--I could absolutely see our current Executive Branch deciding we will allow just one law school in each of those states to participate in the Student Loan Program, and we will cap the enrollment so they can't cheat by putting 5 law school classes in one school. Once that happens, the great majority of law schools will be forced to go out of business. This model would greatly reduce the quantity, and improve the quality, of new law school grads. Perhaps they could turn the long-falling Bar Exam Pass Rate around, and eventually end the glut of lawyers! Colleges will also be removed from the Student Loan Program, while Trade Schools will be promoted and funded. Our bloated federal budget is being trimmed, a lot, and it is high time that this happened. Greedy scamsters running joke law schools should know their scam is ending, the clock is ticking down.
ReplyDeleteThe loan programs for graduate school and college may well be ended, but this administration will not fund trade schools-nor should they. The post-high school scam includes those schools, too.
DeleteRight. Its all well and good to say we need training programs for people who just aren't cut out for college, but that doesn't mean trade school. It should mean apprenticeship, which is something we've known since the era of medieval guilds.
DeleteAnd you know what apprenticeship is? It means the trainee gets PAID, not that THEY pay. So there's no tuition to take out a loan FOR. And because the place that hires the apprentices is paying for it, they're not going to invest in apprenticeships for people they don't expect to have jobs for.
It naturally puts supply and demand in harmony. The whole reason you take on apprentices is because you're starting to contemplate retirement and need to replace yourself, OR you have more customers than you can handle and need to create more people with your skillset in order to expand.
Congrats on twelve years of exposing law schools and their greed. I started reading your blog when I was a 3L in law school, and it inspired me to re-evaluate my life after five semesters, once I realized that my scam diploma wouldn’t be worth the sheepskin it was printed on. Dropped out midway through 3L second semester, best decision I’ve ever made!
ReplyDelete1:51 I wanted to post something about encouraging law students to drop out in the first year. I think it would actually be more effective than trying to dissuade students from initially attending. The psychological issues are different though. But why do you say that dropping out in the last semester was the best thing you ever did unless you were presented with an opportunity that you had to accept immediately? To me the damage would have been done and you may as well have stayed for the degree but not take the bar exam.
ReplyDelete6:48, I realized that earning a J.D. (contrary to what admissions officers will tell you) is the WORST thing for your marketability. When I was speaking with employers, they told me that it wasn’t just neutral on your resume, it was an active stain of dishonor. Like a felony conviction, or listing your favorite hobby as “Torturing Small Animals.” The public are finally starting to wake up and appreciate that lawyers and their lawyerings have given this nation naught but ruin. JD-holders beware, your days are numbered!
DeleteI know someone who dropped out after 1L and moved into finance. It has really worked out well for her. What I've noticed observing this is that average people HATE lawyers and that people hiring for these
Delete"law-related" type jobs are no exception. Finishing a JD will trigger that instinctive hatred whether you ever took the bar/practiced or not. But merely having done first year doesn't seem to trigger that distaste, and they actually seem to kinda like it for whatever reason.
So I think the best time to drop out is spring 1L, after you know where you stand, but before you are obligated to pay spring semester tuition. That takes a lot of grit though. I should have done it.
DeleteThe JD is almost never an advantage on a résumé for any position other than that of lawyer. For other positions, it is usually a grave disadvantage: people wonder why someone with a JD is applying for a job in another field, rather than making millions as a lawyer.
DeleteAs to the commentator who said "the best time to drop out is spring 1L, after you know where you stand, but before you are obligated to pay spring semester tuition." Law schools intentionally refuse to release Fall grades until well into the Spring semester, AFTER the students have paid their tuition, bought their books, and made housing arrangements. The law schools have been scamming people for decades, they know all the tricks. When 9/10 law students realize that they didn't make the top ten percent of the class--and, for the people who say I'm not good at math, that just means you're stupid--when they realize that, the law schools have a two-fold strategy to ensure that they stick around and pay 3 full years of tuition. 1) the "sunk costs" argument, essentially saying well, you've already put in one year, you might as well stick it out and 2) "Well, so, you didn't make top 10%/Law Review but you DID make top 1/3 & Space Law Journal, so that's pretty much the same thing. And, yes, there was a real "secondary journal" about Space Law at one toilet school, for a number of years, and yes, law students really are dumb enough to think that telling an employer they graduated in the "top" 29.654 percentile of the class, and wrote for some garbage journal that literally almost no one on earth has ever heard of, will get them an amazing job like the ones portrayed on the popular TV show "Suits". If these people were smart, they wouldn't have enrolled in law school in the first place.
DeleteNote that this business of "top third" and the like carries over as well to the "rankings" of law schools: "My school is in the top 70", or "the top third". Although "top third" might not be bad at Harvard, it is functionally a condemnation almost everywhere else.
DeleteAnd only the flagship law review—if that—matters. The Indiana Tech Journal of Law & Hip-Hop on a résumé merely advertises a failure to make the real law review. Nobody will believe you if you claim to have turned the flagship publication down because you were truly interested in hip-hop or whatever.
Of course, if you don't make the flagship review, you can always take a leaf from the book of Lisa Turner (formerly McElroy) and flash your aristocratic pedigree by mentioning Choate and your upscale package trips…
Sorry: Tucker, not Turner.
DeleteI wish Dilbert and OG were kidding about fake law reviews, but they aren't. The only one that matters-if at all-is the school's official law review; any and all others are a bad joke-and the joke's on the participants. My law school had a series of student initiated "law reviews" in topic like foreign affairs, urban issues in the USA, etc etc. All were a bad joke, and were every bit as impressive as being in the top 4/5ths of a law school class. Listing them on a resume usually elicited a "huh?" from the interviewer who then recognized the scam and then dismissed the interviewee. And yes that's exactly what happened to fellow students participating in these canards.
DeleteWould also note-as this happened to me-often listing a JD for a non-lawyer job may get you an interview, but the question I got was "well, you're a lawyer; aren't you going to leave as soon as you find a lawyer job?" And that was the end of that interview. So yeah, it's a badge of shame for many non-legal employers.
Deletedilbert113, you are totally right. I remember being really conflicted in the spring of 1L. I thought I was going to Kick A$$, then as the grades came in I realized I wouldn't be doing the fall 2L interviews with Biglaw. Several brave souls dropped out not knowing all their grades and I should have too. I was foolishly waiting on my contracts grade.
DeleteAt the élite schools, the flagship law review will help you in fancy circles (unless you are Old Guy). Anywhere else, it just shows that you spell better than most other students in your class.
DeleteThe East Bumblefuck Journal of Talmudic Sports Law just shows that you didn't make the real law review but still think that you can whore after prestige.
As poorly as it worked out for me, I'll admit that I learned a lot during the first year. I think dropping out after 1L year would've been the best possible outcome for me. And, maybe for anyone not in the top-third of the class.
ReplyDeleteThe JD on a resume is not an advantage but does 2 1/2 years of law school on the resume mitigate the damage. I have no way of knowing.
Delete10:50 I agree that dropping out during 1L is the opportune time. Then you can easily make the argument that 'it wasn't for me'. I would like to point out though that law students are going to be psychologically pressured to stay. First, chances are the student is going to make friends. And these friends are going to tell them they are giving up a golden opportunity. As far a class rank, that is true that the student should be in the upper percentiles, I would say top 15% actually. But the law schools conspire to confuse students in this regard by withholding class rank using such excuses that the information system 'lost' the data and class rank is unavailable. Or creating such large segments as to be useless such as middle 25th to 75th ranking. The only measure the student has is GPA which by itself is useless.
Law students should be aware of these tactics used to keep them in school and learn to ignore them and follow their gut instincts. It may cost some friendships but it is better than being trapped with a law degree.
I was in the top-third (top 20% or whatever, I don't remember), got a scholarship, and still don't think it was worth it. I never would have gone if I came from a better family background that actually had opportunities and tried to foster my interests.
DeleteThe law school scam preys on intelligent young people from the lower classes, that just don't know better and don't have the connections to guarantee success. And you need those guarantees. Very few people make it on the edges with just ability and work ethic, if anything, those are the two least reliable indicators of success.
I always thought expanding the blog to encompass other grad professions would be good. (P.S.--reader since 2014 or so.)
ReplyDeleteOld Guy,
ReplyDeleteCongrats on 4 million readers! Thank you for using your free time to post on this blog.
The Class of 2024 employment data is trickling in. Cooley has not reported their data yet. One notorious offender, former John Marshall now UIC, has posted their data. Adding up the unemployed grads with employment status unknown results in an abysmal unemployment rate of 12% 10 months after graduation! And I’m excluding the 2% of grads who had jobs starting after March 17, 2025. The bureau of labor statistics currently reports an unemployment rate of 4.2%. But graduates of low tier law schools face unemployment rates 3 times the national average. 73% of the class obtained a FT LT job requiring bar admission. I can’t imagine Cooley will be much different.
The second tier toilet I graduated from reports an unemployment rate of 6% 10 months after graduation. Only 79% of grads obtained a FT LT job requiring bar admission. I don’t think the market has changed much since when I graduated unemployed in the mid 2000s with good grades and law review. It is hard to compare though because back then my law school claimed 99% of grads had jobs with an average private practice salary of $100k.
I fear we may see a spike in law school admissions. The economic data is not looking good. The Atlanta Fed projects negative first quarter GDP growth. A lot of college grads are struggling to find jobs. We could be looking at another large crop of unemployed liberal arts grads turning to law school.
Congrats to OTLSS, and many more years of calling out the law school and related scams.
ReplyDelete