Friday, November 14, 2014

Keep Your Kids Off Cooley.

The good news is that bottom-of-the-barrel Thomas Cooley Law School has a free Saturday program for elementary and secondary school youth in Pontiac, Michigan. This "pipeline program" [1] boasts the child-friendly title "Cooley Collaborative for a Certainty of Opportunity," or CCCO.

According to its program profile (below), CCCO "uses small and large group mentoring programs involving both students and their parents to build character and increase academic success." It aims to warn kids away from the temptations and "destructive influences" they will face as they mature— things like teen pregnancy, "kid crime," and substance abuse. Cooley has taken a lot of flack from scamblogs, but surely one can forgive a lousy law school its 22.9% nine-month-out bar required job placement rate if it can keep area adolescents from getting knocked up and/ or becoming gangster dope fiends. 

The bad news, of course, is that Cooley Law School does not warn kids off the temptation or destructive influence of itself. 

One of the highlights of CCCO is the free 'Success on Saturdays' program held every other Saturday at a Pontiac high school. Success on Saturdays helps kids focus on getting organized, on test taking strategies, and on study habits. Accordingly, program services provided include "[s]tudy skills,""tutoring and academic support," and "[m]entoring/advising service." And, needless to say, the organizers will not neglect to gift the children with all-important "Law school and career information."

What can you say about a pipeline program like this? I hope, and think it is possible, that the program does some good, even though it is sponsored by an outfit with dubious ulterior motives. Perhaps a fair analogy would be to an after-school or weekend program for children run by a fundamentalist religious organization. The kids arguably benefit from the fellowship, group outings, and some of the moral and practical lessons. But one also hopes that a parent, or some other trusted adult influencer, would quietly take each kid aside and say: "Look, I am glad the activities are fun and that you are making friends, but there are aspects of the organizers' outlook and what they want for you that you should regard with deep skepticism."

Or this being the USA, perhaps the most effective way to reach our vulnerable youth is a through a slickly produced and bluntly worded televised public relations campaign. I envision something like this: An actor or celebrity displays a sheet of fine linen paper on which attractive calligraphic print is visible, and declares: “This is your resume.” Next, he drops the paper into a clogged toilet, and then retrieves it using a plunger and medical gloves. He holds the now soggy and repulsive page close to the camera. "This is your resume on Cooley. Or, rather, Cooley on your resume. Any questions?"

------------------------------------------------------

[1] "Law school pipeline programs across the country attempt to make interventions early along this stream on the theory that these interventions will widen the flow of students later in the application stage." Michelle J. Anderson, Legal Education Reform, Diversity, and Access to Justice, 61 Rutgers Law Review 1011, 1029 (2009).




49 comments:

  1. These folks certainly love their C's and O's. Cooley Collaborative for a Certainty of Opportunity. "Thomas M. CCCOoley School of Law."

    ReplyDelete
  2. I think the toilet plunger ad is apt. I, unfortunately, am a Cooley graduate as are many of my acquaintances and the job outcomes are absolutely horrible - in fact, using the word 'horrible' doesn't do justice to our situations being, on average, over $100,000 in debt from attending law school and getting a job outcome and pay that is fitting for a high school student.

    I currently make $14,000 a year (take home pay) in a part-time, non-legal job four years out of law school and I speak several languages - I lost a lot of time going to Cooley and it was a complete waste. I will never forgive what that school put me through for absolutely nothing. One friend was working for Home Depot after graduating from Cooley, and he was an excellent litigator who excelled in competitions and represented the school on national teams, if I'm not mistaken. Another graduate, years after graduating from Cooley, was working as a security guard and another, five years after graduating, was finally able to obtain a temporary job as a legal secretary, covering for someone on maternity leave. Can you imagine busting your ass in law school and passing the bar only to obtain a temporary job as a legal secretary five years after law school and being grateful about it because it was the best job option you have had since graduating from Cooley?

    Another graduate was a pizza delivery man because he didn't make enough money in his own practice to cover the bills and another graduate is currently preparing to file bankruptcy because five years out of law school, he doesn't make more than $18,000 a year as a solo practitioner.

    Questions of the day: Do such outcomes justify attending law school? Does anyone think these individuals are paying back their student loans?

    These are real outcomes and I wish to get the word out to every person considering law school or Cooley. Cooley, in my opinion, is not worth the debt. You can do better.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I got to admit, I find your post very difficult to believe. Anybody intelligent enough to pass a bar exam must be intelligent enough to do something in our society where they can make more money than a high school dropout. Your post simply makes no sense to me. I get the no law part . . but no job part is difficult to believe. At the least, you should be able to do something like sell life insurance. No Life Insurance company should hold it against you that you have a JD. Why would they. Life insurance involves some legal issues, so a JD could only help. And some of those guys eventually retire pretty well off. All you need to do is be willing to work hard and accept lots of negative outcomes. But that is the type of job where tenacity and perseverance will pay off. Where is a future in a minimum wage job?

      Delete
    2. 9:58 here. Thanks for insulting me and my friends by not believing our very-real life circumstances. Of course, no one could be doing poorly in our current, shitty economy while YOU are doing great, can they? I mean, if one person is doing great, that means we ALL are, right? Brilliant logic, Sherlock!

      You say that the "no job part is difficult to believe." Excuse me, but where did I say that any of the people I mentioned had no jobs? Every person I mentioned, including myself, has a job and quite frankly, we work damn hard. Are you going to insult all the people who don't happen to work in jobs such as sellers of life insurance by categorizing them as having no jobs?

      I have a job. I work hard every day and hopefully, due to my hard work, when the agency for which I work is able to hire for a full-time position, they will hire me. And last time I checked, working as a legal secretary is a job. So is working as a pizza delivery person to supplement your income as a solo practitioner. And making $18,000 a year as a solo practitioner is a job. Just because we all aren't making $50,000 a year in the glorious job of an insurance saleperson doesn't mean we aren't working. You seem to think that $50,000 a year jobs are just lined up out there, available to anyone for the taking. As someone who has applied to over 800 jobs (ranging for a variety of positions) over the last four years and gotten just five job interviews, I know how damn hard it is to graduate from law school without several years of experience in the fields in which you are applying and hope to get a job.

      If you don't believe that a JD is a disadvantage, you might want to take the time to get your head out of the clouds and check out the site "JD Disadvantage," which will introduce you to the numerous job positions who won't allow JD's to apply.

      By the way, your comment relating passing the bar with being intelligent enough to make more money than a high school drop-out makes no sense as it equates academic success with financial success. It's the old "the way to success is through an education." That's been broken for a long time now. Don't take my word for it. Just check out replays of the 2012 Presidential debates, where a favorite refrain of Mitt Romney's was how 50% of all college graduates now are unemployed or underemployed and many are moving back in with mom and dad. Academic accolades and law licenses don't help you in most places of employment, my friend, especially if the academic accolades come at the expense of real-world experience, which spending three years in theory-driven law school almost guarantees.

      As many recent law graduates can attest, having a bar under your belt doesn't do a damn bit of good for your job prospects if you don't have the corresponding two or three years of experience that all job ads now require. I was licensed in two jurisdictions and having those pieces of paper did NOTHING for my job prospects. I regret the money and time I spent obtaining them. The job I have now doesn't use them and I doubt I will have a job that will. People don't give a damn about useless pieces of paper or education - they care about experience.

      If you don't believe anything of what I've said, I suggest you are far too privileged and might want to come off the cloud you are living on. Where I work, my clients are from all sorts of different backgrounds and it's alarming the number of people I meet who used to be high-up managers just a few years ago but are now trying to eke out an existence on a minimum-wage or low-paying job. Next time anyone of them mentions difficulties with finding jobs, I'll remind them that there are insurance sales representative positions somewhere out there that are theirs for the taking...

      Delete
    3. 9:58 am here again. One more thing. If real-life experiences make you queasy and you would prefer hard-cold percentages, Law School Transparency may be able to help. As mentioned above, they report that Cooley only has a 22.9% legal employment rate nine months after graduation. They also report that Cooley has a 46% underemployment rate, which means, as the job outcomes of my friends and me demonstrated above, that if you go to Cooley, you are more likely to be underemployed or unemployed than working as an attorney:

      http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cooley/2013/

      Delete
    4. "People don't give a damn about useless pieces of paper or education - they care about experience."

      Actually, 9:58, it's not so much experience as the ability to deliver demonstrable results. I don't disagree with you, but I do think 4:00's point has some merit. They may not save all of your friends but in addition to insurance there are other commission-based opportunities where I have seen lawyers get work and get ahead. These would include selling securities, real estate sales and working at a car dealership. In some of these positions they'll take on high school graduates but an articulate, educated person is probably of more value to them.

      A big part of it is taking on the risks attendant to living on a commission-based income, but any of the options mentioned are far better bets than solo practice in this day and age.

      Good luck to you and your friends.

      Delete
    5. 9:58 is completely right about Cooley and I should know because I am also a graduate from as far back as the 90s. I passed the bar the first try so I was able to apply for the jobs where bar passage was required and the job search was completely futile. I did sell cars for a year and was laid off because of the economic down turn and I can attest having a law degree has no advantage to selling cars at all. The top salesmen never even went to college for a day. I only got the car dealership job because I knew the manager from my gym. And never forget, once you graduate from your law school and 9 months has elapsed, then the ABA required employment survey results are in and afterwards you are totally forgotten from the law school. Your unemployment or employment will not affect their statistics anymore so you are only technically an alumnus. You are on your own at this point and no law schools career services will offer you assistance anywhere. Remember this: No Job 9 months after graduating then 99% chance you never ever will practice law for life. It's almost like if a hag is not married by age 40 she never will be married. And those kids in Pontiac Michigan would probably be better off being told to watch Scarface and emulate him than attend any law school today, not just Cooley. ThirdTierReality even profiled Cornell and there are jobless grads now there.

      Delete
    6. 9:58 here. I appreciate all the job ideas, but I think so many of you are missing my point. I am sure there are jobs out there that will pay more than what my friends and I are making. I am sure right now that there is a waitress job out there where I can make more in tips than what I earn right now. But I didn't spend several years in law school to work as a waitress or in a car-dealership.

      My post wasn't to complain about my salary, because I didn't go to law school to get a salary. I went to law school to 1) work as an attorney, and, in the alternative, 2) work in a professional job, preferably one that used research, writing, and oral advocacy skills.

      As the statistics indicate, it's very unlikely that you will get either type of job graduating from Cooley. Law School Transparency reports a 28% unemployment rate for Cooley graduates - four times the national average. Think about what that means: if you go to Cooley you are four times more likely to be completely unemployed than the average American. That doesn't come from me - that comes from Law School Transparency:

      http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/cooley/trends/2013/

      LST also reports that Cooley has a 46% underemployed rate, with LST reporting that underemployed means unemployed or in a non-professional, short-term or part-time job. Those figures correspond with what I see amongst the job outcomes of my fellow Cooley graduates that I described above - the real effects on the lives of those graduating from a school reporting a 46% underemployment rate.

      Since I can assume that most of us went to law school because we wanted to do a certain job (ie: work as a lawyer or in a professional job) and not work in a car dealership or as an insurance sales rep, which I can assume since we all know one doesn't need to spend $135,000 on a law degree to get such jobs, Cooley sorely fails in helping its graduates achieve the goal they have in attending law school, giving up three years of their lives, and taking on massive debt. That was my point and what I wanted to make clear to those considering taking out over $100,000 in student loans to attend Cooley.

      Delete
    7. "But I didn't spend several years in law school to work as a waitress or in a car-dealership. "

      You know, 9:58, at some point you have got to accept some personal responsibility. In the 1980s I only applied to what are now USNWR top-25 schools because it was common knowledge even back then that real law firms rarely hired anyone out of jokes like Cooley or anyplace else outside the T-25 except wel-regarded state schools. So you went to law school to be a lawyer. Does that place upon the world some responsibility to provide a job for you? You were a pigeon. You got suckered, bamboozled and fleeced. You, my friend, went to law school for a pipe dream. If you want to sit back with your wounded pride and entitlement mentality instead of getting off your ass and trying to get ahead in life then so be it, but you will get no further sympathy from me

      Delete
    8. Try getting ahead in life when you have over $200,000 in student loans from an ABA approved law school and just start fresh. We are not talking here someone went to the local community college and got a certificate in Information Technology just to discover all the jobs went to India. That is easy to switch careers because the financial outlays were paltry in comparison. Many law students were first generation law students in their families and had no way of knowing the job market or being warned of the truth by their circumstances. Not everyone's mother is Nancy Grace and father is Gerry Spence. I guess if your 401(k) goes belly up because the administrators were deceitful and cooked the books then if you are 65 and broke people can tell you that you should have known better and you were living a pipe dream expecting your 401(k) to grow in value. Hey, maybe the victim's of Bernie Madoff better get their asses off their couches and call the local drug dealer and ask them if they can help distribute cocaine so they can get rich again. Opportunity is at every street corner according to self righteous people like you.

      Delete
    9. @5:56

      9:58 here. Hello boomer! Welcome to the board! What would the conversation be like without the words 'entitled' and 'personal responsibility' thrown in! While I hate to diminish the obvious satisfaction you get in being able to use those words, I have to say I actually got a good chuckle at your incredibly expanded definition of entitled. That's because I remember when entitled used to mean people who didn't want to work and wanted to rely on government hand-outs. Now it's being used to describe people who work while hoping to obtain a career in the field that they studied - the arrogance of them! Yup! If they all aint working at a car dealership or selling insurance, they're entitled!

      Pardon my confusion, however, in asking, where in my post, does it say I, or any of the individuals I described, were sitting around, waiting for our dream jobs? All of the individuals that I described worked hard on a daily basis, although it may not be in the job of our dreams and it may not be in the job that others have described we should take. Just because we haven't accepted the latest insurance sales rep job makes us entitled?

      In my case, I have a paid job that, while it may not be what I had hoped for, pays the bills. I also do unpaid pro bono work to keep my skills sharp and not too long ago completed a year-long, unpaid internship to help me gain experience in the career field that I hope to one day enter. And I continue to apply for jobs on a weekly basis that I think will advance my career - the nerve! Entitled - I know! Who am I to think that I should continue to strive for a job that I want while working at a job that pays the bills - don't I know my place?

      And of course, surely I am entitled if I had the audacity to admit that I actually attended law school to become (gasp!) a lawyer! Shame on me for admitting that I actually hoped to work as a lawyer after graduation and didn't just run out and grab the first car dealership position I could find. And don't get me started on how entitled it must seem that I actually had the audacity to post on a board the true job outcomes of Cooley graduates (who, of course, are all entitled because they hoped to obtain legal jobs after graduating) so that prospective students could have an accurate picture of the likely job outcome if they attended this school.

      Thank-you so much for reminding me that the only way to not be entitled today isn't to work dilligenty at your job while you continue to search for ways to improve your job situation, it's to work at a car dealership or as an insurance sales rep - doing anything else is simply....entitled.

      Delete
    10. @ 9:58 AM.

      Thank you for being so up front and honest.

      I've known of these types of outcomes for many years now.

      What you have written is the unvarnished, awful truth of coming from a non-elite law school which, I suppose, is anything less than a T6 today, just to be somewhat on the safer side.

      The Boomer naysayer here is goddamn ridiculous. Aren't they all, really?

      This person, quite simply, has NO CLUE about TODAY'S CIRCUMSTANCES.

      Get a clue.. This ain't 1985.. Those conditions and opportunities are dead and long-gone forever.

      Secondly, re: the "hard work" schtick: Again, not 1985 anymore. As time has gone on and the legal market has done nothing but continually shrink while the number of law schools expanded like fleas and tuition skyrocketed far exceeding inflation, the value of the degree has been all but obliterated. No amount of hard work will overcome the current market conditions out there.

      We're in a new Guilded Age. Hard work is for proles and suckers now.

      The outcomes described by the OP may as well be from my own school. I know them all.

      You want a good job, in law or anything else? Simple. Come from lots of money, a part of the upper crust, maybe Dad is a doctor and Mom is a corporate Executive or lawyer herself at a large firm. The family is affiliated strongly with one of the 2 political parties, etc.

      And you'll get one. Without hard work. Without much ado. It will only take a phone call.

      As far as experience, that doesn't matter either. Your resume must be elite with elite names on it. Experience without those right names gets you nowhere. All you will ever amount to is a grunt -- if that -- while those with the right connections and names on their resumes leapfrog far beyond anything you can or will ever be able to do.

      And THAT is how the World works today.

      Delete
    11. " Anybody intelligent enough to pass a bar exam must be intelligent enough to do something in our society where they can make more money than a high school dropout."

      I agree. I mean, if you just go down to the Jobs Store, they'll readily give you a "college preferred" job, and then you just have to show that you can deliver results.

      In the alternative, you could hit the pavement! Have you ever gone to a large or mid-sized city. There are businesses EVERYWHERE! Those businesses need employees. You should just walk from place to place and ask all of them if they have any work available. Usually, they'll smile and hand you a job! And if you work that job well, then you can be assistant manager at that job, and then manager, and then you can OWN your own place and give jobs to people walking door-to-door!

      Kids these days.

      Delete
    12. @5:56:

      " it was common knowledge even back then that real law firms rarely hired anyone out of jokes like Cooley or anyplace else outside the T-25 except wel-regarded state schools."

      That's not even true, you piece of sanctimonious trash. A lot of T2 and T3 schools had fairly strong placement records in the 1980s and even into the 1990s. Suffolk would be one example of this. Brooklyn, Cardozo, Loyola (LA or Chicago), Pepperdine, Baylor, Miami, Syracuse, etc. Even JMLS in Chicago had a worthwhile local presence and today has a fairly extensive alumni network of local practitioners and judges who landed decent jobs in the 80s and 90s. You could go to one of those schools and unless you were a total screw up, you had a fairly good shot at a stable middle class life. PD jobs were a legit fall-back option.

      Since that time, the market more or less plateaued and the ABA decided to accredit a whole new slate of post-Cooley trash holes: Widener, Roger Williams, Appalachian, Florida Coastal, St. Thomas, Chapman, Ave Maria, Charleston, Barry, Liberty, Drexel, Elon, Phoenix SOL, Charlotte SOL, etc.

      The amount of new lawyers swelled while jobs did not. Meanwhile, the T2 and T3 schools spent 20+ years acting like all was hunky-dory.

      Cooley a scam? Sure - if they'd heard of it. But most practitioners today would be surprised that there are problems with places with name brands. That's where the real scam is, IMO, it's the T2 and T3 schools that used to be good educational institutions who totally screwed over their own students by pretending that everything was okay while steaming into icebergs and reserving the cushiest spots on the lifeboats.

      Delete
    13. Hi, 9:58, 5:56 here. I am starting to see why you borrowed all that money to go to Cooley. You are assuming that my words mean things that they were not intended to mean but which you want them to mean. Were you aware that words can mean different things in different contexts?

      "Accept some personal responsibility." Thirty years ago people who went to places like Cooley were seen as colossal dopes. Usually the loud-mouths who had decided to be lawyers in high school and who though that they were a lot smarter than they were. They also thought that they could be kick-ass lawyers and that anyone with a functioning brain would see their incredible abilities. When I applied to law schools I knew no private practice lawyers and knew little about what law practice was like. But EVERYBODY knew that there were way too many lawyers. From that common knowledge I decided that if I didn't get into a T-25 school I would pursue a different career. Twenty years later a friend's ivy-educated son made the same, albeit slightly modified, decision. He too knew no lawyers except me and knew little of private law practice. But by the mid-2000's it was self-evident that T-25 was no longer good enough. He applied to HYS and, getting into none of them, pursued an MBA at a prestigious university and is having a fine career. Maybe that's where the problem lies. People who miss the T-25 or T-3 and justify to themselves trying to get into the T-30 or T-5. That downward spiral leads, eventually, to Cooley.

      "Entitlement mentality" in this context means saying that you went to law school because you wanted to be lawyer. That is also called a credentialing mentality. I get this piece of paper and pass a test and now someone has to give me a job because that is what I want. That is not how the world works. The fact that you have two pieces of paper - a diploma and a license - does not mean that the United States economy is going to create more jobs to accommodate you. I had wanted to be a history professor but bailed on that idea for the same reason: It was self-evident to anyone with a pulse that there were thousands of people who wanted cushy, tenure track positions and the finest credentials in the world would guarantee nothing. If you chose to go to Cooley thinking anyone would be impressed you must have been living under a rock. Or maybe you let your own ego convince you that you could succeed where so many others from far more reputable schools had failed.

      You made a very stupid yet easily avoidable mistake which, sadly, will probably change the whole trajectory of your life. My point is that people who made such mistakes can either sit down in the mud and pity themselves or try to make the best of it.

      Delete
    14. And what kind of Boomer-Mighty Douchbag assumes that 9:58 is "sitting in the mud" and not "trying to make the best of it?"

      Delete
    15. @9:09

      9:58 here. The Boomer assumes that because I had the audacity (gasp!) to iterate the job outcomes of Cooley graduates so that prospective students would be warned. Boomers don't like that. They like to keep everything 'status-quo' and don't want anyone speaking out against the system because it worked for them. Why would they want to upend or change the situation? Changing it now might threaten their advantage.

      So quit your bitchin' ya all. The way Boomer did it 25 years ago is the way to do it today. It worked for him or her - it can work for you too.

      Delete
    16. 9:58 again.

      If Boomer's definition of sitting in the mud is as expansive as his or her definition of entitled, I'm probably guilty of it. I work at a paid job, do several hours of unpaid pro bono work per week, just finished up a year-long, unpaid internship that added 20 additional hours to my work week not too long ago, am currently taking a class, apply to about 3 jobs a week, and am working on opening my own business (it's a non-legal venture.)

      Yeah, that's sitting in the mud and waiting for others to fix things for you, all right. But the one thing that makes me guilty of 'sitting in the mud' and being 'entitled' is that I refuse to accept the system the way that it is and I encourage others to question it and criticize it. Just like I'm entitled for daring to go to law school for the self-confessed reason of increasing my job opportunites.

      Boomers have an interest in maintaining the system the way that it is, because it works for them and they benefit from it. Anyone that dares to say that it's not working will be discounted. It doesn't matter how many hours a week they work or what their work ethic is - that's irrelevant.

      That's why Boomer (5:56) didn't need to know anything about my life or what I was doing to better my work situation to throw out the words 'entitled' and 'sitting in the mud.' I'm questioning the system and whether it works for the majority of the people. That's enough to put my work ethic into question and to justify calling me entitled.

      Delete
    17. 9:58 for one last time.

      By the way, this Cooley graduate that Boomer implies was a 'colossal dope' for attending Cooley, graduated with an A-average from college, attended both European and American colleges, speaks four languages, and attended Cooley because I received a pretty generous scholarship. (I also was enticed by the fact that it offered a concentration in International Law, which I stupidly assumed would mean something.)

      At the time I made the decision to attend, I focused on keeping my tuition costs down because I didn't want to graduate with that much debt. I was unaware of UNwhatever rankings, as rankings and prestige was never my thing. I didn't even learn the definition of tier one, two, three, etc., until a year or two after graduating. Job outcomes and working in public interest (not BigLaw) was my focus, but as we all know, publication of accurate job outcomes was never required by the law schools until 2011.

      I write about the terrible job outcomes from Cooley because I want people to understand that getting a great scholarship from a school is not enough. Just because you don't have to pay a lot to attend school doesn't mean it's free. You still lose a lot of years from attending (and the amount of money you could earn during those years) so it may still be a losing proposition. And, as is evinced from the job outcomes of many of my aquaintances, sometimes going to law school can put you in a worse position, job-wise, than had you never attended. Future students, you have been warned.

      Delete
    18. And lest I forget (which I did, initially..) the whole "personal responsibility" schtick is just as tiresome.

      Everyone talks about the responsibility of the individual who is now stuck to the tune of $200,000 in non-dischargeable student loan debt.

      No one is talking about the responsibility of the schools.

      Where is their responsibility?

      They see class after class of students march through their doors and they surely know the outcome distribution. That is to say, they sleep well at night knowing that a majority of their graduates are financially doomed for life.

      It's called fraud. Except that we also have a judicial system, as evidenced by 16 separate decisions, that is in place to protect monied interests, among them the law schools. Laughably, they claim that 22-yr. olds are "sophisticated consumers".

      They lie. They lie in their glossy brochures. They lie to their incoming students. They manipulate / conceal vital employment information from their students, etc.

      Nope.. The responsibility argument only goes as far as the individual - not the schools. They signed on the dotted line for their loans. They're responsible.

      And that's the end of it.

      Except it isn't. There is nothing beyond this generation because they simply can't get an economic foothold to better themselves. No amount of wistful thinking will create good jobs for them. They simply do not exist.

      I find it quite amazing that the Boomers, who had every advantage going for them, now whine about money as half of them still wound up broke. Yet, they expect the current generation to come from behind with loans, save, have good jobs, and make due for themselves in the current and likely future economic climate.

      Ridiculous.

      Delete
    19. It's the fault of the boomers, the law schools, the deans, the professors, sallymae, the government, congress. It's not my fault. I did everything I was told to do. I educated myself, borrowed 200k, went to a tttt because I was lied to. And damn it...how was I supposed to know that loans needed to be paid back. There were too few jobs for law graduates, and that being a lawyer was very competitive and very hard work with lots of washouts. I would have been a stem major if I were smarter, but I chose law ...AND THE UNIVERSE OWES ME

      Delete
    20. To 7:07 AM:

      And there we have it. The best this joker can do is half-baked arguments and ad hominem attacks.

      God, I hope I can get a job at the Soylent Green factory in my city after the collapse. There's only one use left for people of your generation and ilk.

      I'll be smiling all the way as I pull the levers.

      Who says you can't be happy and have a great job and fun while you work?

      Delete
    21. And there we have it . . . the problem with some of the youth of today . . succumbing to mental illness in the face of failure. Imagine what would have happened if the depression generation, or the World War 2 Generation had done the same sort of pity party. The country would have been over long ago. Its really tough when the Universe does not give a person what he thinks he deserves. I get it.

      Delete
    22. How's that date with the Death Clock coming friend?

      Go hang yourself and your personal responsibility schtick.

      And remember, young people are paying for your retirement. They're the ones paying into the System.

      But they're entitled, right?

      And, btw, you know nothing. Less than nothing. It's obvious.

      Fool.

      Delete
    23. Oh, and my guess is, you don't speak multiple languages like the OP. Heck, I doubt you can read the conversational Spanish on the back of a box of crackers..

      You're some Boomer schmuck with a shitty degree from 1968 who knows "everything" and damn those kids $200,000 in debt. It's their own fault and they're stupid anyway..

      The sooner your generation goes down, the better off we're all going to be.

      Delete
    24. Personal responsibility? Why the heck would you think anyone was personally responsible for themselves? Nobody should be responsible for their bad choices in life. We need to blame law professors, deans, the boogeyman who sleeps under your bed and of course the Boomers . . . because it is all their fault. I agree 100% with you. And thank you so much for paying my Social Security Taxes (FICA) all these years. Its been a lot given I have been paying the max forever . . . so when do you reimburse my contribution? Can I expect a check in the mail any day now?

      Delete
    25. The "personal responsibility" crowd is inadvertently making our case for us. Their instant reflex is to blame the victim, of course, just because it feels so good to do so. But once you get into the details of what the students were supposed to learn for themselves, we find that law school is indeed a scam.

      High tuition at trap schools like Brooklyn, increased far beyond the cost of living, totally disproportionate to any possible reward? The students should have known that ahead of time. Huge incoming classes and extremely competitive employment markets in places like New York, DC, Florida, and California? The students should have known that ahead of time. A rigid bimodal salary structure? The students should have known that ahead of time. A persistent hierarchy of extremely competitive admissions that largely determines entrance into the few well-paid legal jobs? The students should have known that ahead of time. Almost no "JD advantage" jobs for new graduates? The students should have known that ahead of time. No jobs in space law, sports law, entertainment law, human rights law, constitutional law, environmental law, or international law outside of a few top schools? The students should have known that ahead of time. Once you add up all the things that law schools refuse to tell their applicants, you have a pretty good summary of the legal profession today. And the students are responsible for learning all this on their own.

      How can students learn all these devastating facts on their own? Through sources like this blog. So if you really believe in personal responsibility, don't just rant about personal responsibility. Don't just construct a parody of personal responsibility in which marginal students without reliable information choose between unconscionable options. Help us disseminate the facts that allow prospective law students to make truly responsible decisions.

      Delete
    26. Have you read the whining posts day after day from some of the regulars here? Nobody denies things are tough out there. But the whining about boomers this and law schools that ..
      I have to believe some of the posters indeed are in need of significant psychological care. Their complaints are vague, over broad and irrational and further, unlikely to win many converts. It's one thing to talk about facts like student debt. It's another to totally discount any responsibility for where a person is in their own life and to whine and cry about the boomers, as if the boomers made a concerted effort to harm younger people. I don't know ... it's clear these whiners are dysfunctional..but perhaps it is depression talking and I shouldn't be so hard.

      .

      Delete
    27. 11-17-14 3:22 PM:

      Like this, for example?

      http://jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=39559

      Proves your point well, IMO.

      Delete
    28. i agree with multiple people on this, if you're procuring a juris doctor degree,yet are not astute enough to commence a quite bankable $law practice,on your OWN,something is wrong. Seriously.Wrong. I love Thomas Cooley Law School,and will do exactly that. i have already made more than most it appear,by simply being a researcher,and empowerment consultant.
      proud of it,as i am 1 step closer to my law degree.
      Sad,some are adaging,they can't do it,boo hoo hoo 14,000 a year GMAFB, i don't
      believe it.Not one bit.Your fault,if you are not attempting to be more creative,and astute,to start your own firm.I know no one who can't.
      Glad i am not that way.

      Delete
  3. Dave GullmorenaivestudentsNovember 14, 2014 at 1:11 PM

    Hey, Cooley, leave them kids alone . . .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We don't need law education.
      We don't no student loans.
      No high-priced drivel in the classroom.
      Lawprofs leave them kids alone.

      Hey! Lawprofs! Leave them kids alone!

      All in all you're just another failure with gall.
      All in all you're just another failure with gall.

      Delete
  4. And in the hallway will be a table where the kids can buy Smokey, the chain-smoking gorilla. Extra plush and made in Taiwan...

    ReplyDelete
  5. If helping kids "avoid destructive influences" was really their goal, Cooley would teach them to avoid T5 law schools that charge ivy league prices but have a 45% bar passage rate and only place 1 in 4 grads in full time, long term lawyer jobs after graduation.

    @ Anon 9:58, thank you for sharing your story. The scarlet letter effect of a Cooley degree probably can't be underestimated.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Nothing will come of this. Cooley is still going down.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Cooley's program is a "pipeline" only in the same sense that my bowels are a "pipeline" that turns food into shit. Like my intestines, Cooley's purpose is to remove everything of value from what comes in, followed by expelling the fecal matter into a toilet and flushing it away, out of sight and out of mind. Except the sewer is starting to overflow and toilets like Cooley are becoming blocked with shit-colored water that no amount of flushing or air freshener or match-lighting can hide the stench of anymore. And programs like this are just the dean's frantic attempts to use a plunger to force more shit down into the sewer before the entire system just turns into one of the photos on Third Tier Reality.

    Physically, the law school is like a fucking bowel too. The front door is the mouth, greedily munching in new students. Yummy! Then the classrooms where they are digested, before being shat out turd-lump by turd-lump in an annual display of explosive diarrhea where the anus itself - the dean - is the last thing that each turd-lump student touches before it splashes into the cold toilet water.

    (I could go on...)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Loving this colorful imagery.

      Delete
    2. Been reading too much Maurice Leiter, I suspect.

      Delete
    3. One of my favorite images, in describing ABA-accredited diplola mills/law schools.

      http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2012/11/loose-bowel-syndrome-liberty-university.html

      Delete
    4. It looks like 7:20 has been reading Brian Leiter's blog too much. He made a point recently of using obscene language on his blog, supposedly to express his solidarity with the controversial "tweets" of an academic publicity-seeker named Steven Salaita. What this has to do with Leiter's claimed expertise in moral philosophy is anyone's guess.

      My own opinion is that using offensive language is simply another expression of Leiter's general hostility toward the human race. This would also explain the breathtaking thuggery of his recent threat to sue a philosophy professor for her advocacy of civility. Leiter naturally excused himself from any moral standards by claiming he was "irritated" by her post, even though she didn't mention him by name.

      So there you have it. Decency, civility, and morality, which are fundamental human values and central concerns of academic philosophy, are mere irritants to the law school parasites. It's so much easier to cash those paychecks when you've deleted your own conscience.

      Delete
    5. I've seen that picture before on Third Tier Reality. Here --> http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com/2010/07/deconstructing-crooklyn-aka-brooklyn.html

      Delete
  8. Cooley's Saturday program for children is no match for Davey and Goliath.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I think a person who gets an online law degree at Taft University Law School which is only accredited by the Distance Education Council is smarter than a person who attended a non-elite law school if you think of the opportunity costs and the cost/benefit analysis. Granted, no law firm is going to hire a Taft law graduate but most law firms are not hiring bottom tier law grads either. And a Taft grad could only practice in California and has a 20% chance of passing the bar but their cumulative bar passage rate is 63%. But a Taft grad only spent $16,000K on his law degree versus $250k average at Cooley or Thomas Jefferson. The Taft grad in California will have more discretionary funds to go solo and hang out a shingle. And if assuming the argument is true that a JD is an advantage selling insurance or getting a government job. If a Taft grad took the bar exam 5 timed in California and finally passes and applied for a job selling insurance, he can write on his resume he passed the California bar exam and has a minimum of legal knowledge. I am not advocating anybody to get an online law degree, but you look smarter taking a risk with a $16,000 law degree that you can only take the California bar exam than taking a $250,000 gamble for a crappy ABA law degree.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I receive e-mail from the "California School of Law" from time to time. The e-mail are always riddled with grammatical errors; I'm talking 3rd grade stuff, like using the word "piers" when you mean "peers". Just say no.

      Delete
    2. So, slogan could be, "Don't Be Daft; Me-trick-you-late To Taft!".

      Delete
    3. Sounds like my kind of law school. I enjoy interacting with piers.

      Delete
  10. Doesn't Michigan have laws against cruelty to children?

    What kind of schools let shameless hucksters show up and peddle fraudulent wares in the guise of helping kids stay "clean?" I would rather my child watch super-hardcore pornography in the classroom, and I am not joking. Less potential for truly bad ideas entering the brain.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anyone remember this?

    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/08/thomas-cooley-law-school-dont-blame-us-if-you-believed-our-lies

    ReplyDelete
  12. Maybe kids would like it if they changed the name to "Coolio"?

    ReplyDelete