Those of a certain age may remember Paul Fussell's amusing book Class: A guide through the American status system, from 1983. Fussell breaks US society into nine classes, plus a non-class called X, according to the tastes and ambitions that are typical of each. Diet, dress, décor, hobbies, language—each is linked to a class's distinctive trait, be it the carefree self-assurance of the upper-middle class, the simpering conventionality of the middle class, or the fearful striving of the high proles. Forty years after publication, it is still good for a few chuckles.
It is Chapter VI, "The Life of the Mind", that concerns us here at OTLSS. The higher-education scam turns out to be nothing new (at 132–33):
The assumption that "a college degree" means something without the college's being specified is woven so deeply into the American myth that it dies very hard, even when confronted with the facts of the class system and its complicity with the hierarchies of the higher learning. For example: Vance Packard, in The Status Seekers, was persuaded as late as 1959 that the idea of "a college diploma" carried sufficient meaning to justify the class designation "the Diploma Elite." Quite wrong. To represent affairs accurately, you'd have to designate an "Elite Diploma Elite," because having a degree from Amherst or Williams or Harvard or Yale should never be confused with having one from Eastern Kentucky University or Hawaii Pacific College or Arkansas State or Bob Jones.… As late as 1972 Packard is still taking that rosy egalitarian view and thus still making the same essential mistake. In A Nation of Strangers he writes cheerfully, "In 1940 about 13 percent of college-age young people actually went to college; by 1970 it was about 43 percent." But no. It was still about 13 percent, the other 30 percent attending things merely denominated colleges. These poor kids and their parents were performing the perpetual American quest not for intellect but for respectability and status.
Indeed, college/university was long ago decoupled from intellect—something not especially common at Harvard and Yale—and reduced to a status-seeking device. When Fussell wrote those words, a bachelor's degree was still decidedly a luxury, the high-school diploma having only recently become de rigueur. About six years later, however, the BA was being billed as essential: one could not expect to find decent work without it. From that time on, young people have been herded into the universities whether or not they have any intellectual ambitions, or even two functioning brain cells to rub together.
Fussell rudely hits the nail on the head with the observation that "the only meaningful educational distinction today is that between the college-educated and the 'college'-educated" (at 133). The scare quotes imply a correct sneer upon those many institutions—more than two thousand already in Fussell's day—that can politely be called non-selective but that over the past several decades have caparisoned themselves with the name "college" or "university". What we might call toilet colleges—the great majority—thrive on a reputation earned in generations past but no longer deserved. "[T]he statement 'He (or she) is a college graduate,' … long years ago, might have carried some weight. But by the 1950s the scene had changed.… The word [college] remained unchanged while the reality altered drastically" (at 132).
Cui bono? More to the point, cui malo? Referring pointedly to "the college swindle" and "the great college-and-status hoodwink" (at 134), Fussell harbors no illusions (at 133–34):
One of the saddest social groups today consists of that 30 percent that during the 1950s and 1960s struggled to "go to college" and thought they'd done that, only to find their prolehood still unredeemed, and not merely intellectually, artistically, and socially, but economically as well. In Social Standing in America, Coleman and Rainwater found that going to a good college—or in my view, a real one—increased one's income by 52 percent, while going to a really good one … increased it by an additional 32 percent over that. But they found that you achieved "no income advantage" if you graduated from a "nonselective" college… No income advantage at all.
The rich fill the élite academies, while "'[t]he newly arrived, eager, upwardly mobile person,' says Leonard Reissman, 'sweaty from his climb up the class ladder, wipes his brow and learns that the doors to full recognition and acceptance are still closed to him" (at 134). Consequently, "the effect of the whole system is to stabilize class rigidity under the color of opening up genuine higher learning to everyone" (ibid).
Fussell locates this college swindle "largely during the Kennedy and Johnson administrations" (at 135), when hundreds upon hundreds of institutions of a vocational rather than an academic character springboarded themselves into the ranks of "universities", for which status they were quite ill prepared. This "unearned promotion … was simply an acceleration of a process normal in this country—inflation, hyperbole, bragging" (ibid).
Hovering above this heap of unduly elevated institutions is an élite group, generously as many as 200 strong, that do confer some cachet. Columbia and the Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Swarthmore and Carlow College, exist in a dialectical, heads-and-tails unity of opposites. The Dartmouth sweatshirt says as much as the bumper sticker for Eureka College. Indeed, "colleges and universities are the current equivalent of salons and levees and courts" (at 141).
Fussell's book is contemporaneous with the notorious "rankings" of You Ass News, which somehow crowned itself supreme authority on the relative merits of allegedly academic institutions. Those "rankings" filled, and fill, a socially constructed need for reducing prestige to a single handy-dandy metric. Thus we hear fools gloat of attending the 179th best college, or the 38th best law school. (Incidentally, genuflecting to authority betrays the middle class, according to Fussell.) The élite academies pack their cohorts principally with the scions of the top three classes (top-out-of-sight, upper, upper-middle); the middle class and the three "prole" classes are stuck with Zero College and East Bumblefuck University. These no-account establishments may seek the bubble reputation through a male football or basketball team, but that too has its limits, and only a few dozen can attain the athletic veneer of respectability. No matter: none of them offers real intellectual or aesthetic fulfillment, nor even much potential for a decent job.
People who 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago would never have gone beyond high school (and might well not have graduated) now scheme for a college as high up the You Ass News "rankings" as possible. Yet from position 200 or so to the end there is no real difference in prestige: they are toilets, one and all. Unfortunately, this information is not widely known or understood, so undistinguished schools flourish at the expense of ambitious but misguided members of the public.
The same is true of law schools. As many as thirteen (Harvard and Yale above all others) may confer genuine prestige; the rest, only a fake prestige if any at all. Although there is real potential for an enterprising person of humble background to land at a Harvard or a Michigan, monetizing the degree may prove difficult—and boasting about a prestigious law school won't pay the bills.
The proliferation of law schools and universities is no eleemosynary project; it is a quest for profit in a day bereft of such traditional options as factory work. There may be twenty lousy schools for every one of recognized merit. Serial "rankings" by the likes of You Ass News delude the public into supposing that schools stand on a continuum, when really they fall into two groups: an élite and all the rest. This was true in the 1950s, according to Fussell, and today it is true in spades. Do not fall for non-selective undergraduate institutions or law schools.
Respectfully, I think it is a little more complicated than that. This blog has established that Law school in the US today is largely a rip-off, because we already have far too many lawyers and lack the capacity to hire swathes more every year. College, on the other hand, is what you make of it. If you are a serious student in any of the following fields: Nursing, Engineering, Accounting, ROTC, Education (getting a Teaching Certificate) you will have multiple well-paying job offers post graduation. Well, one in ROTC, as a Commissioned Officer in the military, but I digress. You can go to an "elite" college, a non-elite one, whatever, we need teachers/nurses/engineers/accountants/Army Officers etc. On the other hand, if you spend 4-6Y partying and screwing around, than whatever your major you will probably end up living at home working for around the minimum wage. I don't like greedy colleges and universities, or bloated and wholly unnecessary sports programs any more than you do, but attending a "non elite" college has worked out well for me and a lot of people I know. The partiers, un-serious students are responsible for their own failures.
ReplyDeleteMost of those lines of work count as "high prole" by Fussell's classification. Military officers are a typical example: he states that they are on the border between high prole and the middle class but adds that their tendency to claim "professional" status, when really they just do as they are told, lowers them. He treats nursing as high prole; I would put some of it in the middle class. (Note that he is concerned not with income but with attitudes and tastes. For him the middle class is cravenly conformist because of its eagerness to avoid falling.)
DeleteTeaching in the public schools is by no means a guaranteed career nowadays; it was dodgy 25 years ago, when even master's programs warned potential students of the likelihood of having to scramble for the odd day as a substitute teacher or move to Bumblefuck, Arizona (even if the university itself was in Minneapolis).
Note too that all of what you mentioned, except engineering, was taught 70 years ago at non-academic institutions: normal schools, business colleges, and the like. Some of it—nursing, for instance—was even taught on the job. This is exactly why Fussell mentions the wholesale elevation of little vocational schools to "university" status. And it hasn't worked out well for people seeking middle-class advancement in the past few decades.
You and I agree on much. In my state the government has removed the "college degree required" line from many jobs. The government recognizes that a 4Y degree in liberal arts may not qualify a person for anything. As of this writing, at least in the state where I reside, there is a serious teacher shortage, and the pay/benefits for teachers are commeasurably high. That can, and probably will change in time, so yes, there is no guarantee whatsoever that attending college to be a teacher today will pay off, say 10Y from now. None at all. If you are looking for a well-paying job, ASAP out of high school, and don't want to go into heavy debt, trade school or a 2Y associate's program to become a radiation tech or something similar is likely to be a much better bet.
DeleteRight, OG. That limited subset of "practical" college majors isn't really something that'd traditionally have been university fare in the first place. College normally explicitly DISAVOWS being preparation for any particular job, and has historically sneered at "trade schools."
DeleteNowadays, the schools have been forced by economic reality to offer trade-oriented majors, but I say this is not a university education in the traditional sense - it just moves things that had historically been taught on the job or in trade school onto the campus, dramatically increasing the cost in the process.
In general, Fussel was right. I have long wanted to read his book but it's been out of print for a long time. In any case, the bottom line to me is that degrees follow the same "natural laws" as currency does: In order to have value, as the economists say, it must among other things be RELATIVELY SCARCE.
Print too much money and you get too much inflation, which devalues your money. Print too many degrees and you get the same. So elite colleges have retained their value because their exclusivity, and thus their scarcity, has been retained. It has nothing to do with what you learn there and everything to do with how hard it is to get in (for an average person to get in I mean, the people who get legacy or "my dad's name is on a building" type consideration don't drag down the perceived scarcity and in fact having contact and potentially making friends with the children of privilege is part of the allure for a regular striver).
Yes you can do OK from a lesser school if you choose your major carefully, but that generally means a trade school major which you shouldn't "really" have to go into debt for in the first place, because universities shouldn't have taken it over from the mostly apprenticeship-based systems that preceded it.
Universities used to be squarely committed to the liberal arts, with a uniform curriculum giving pride of place to Latin and Greek language and literature. And when I say "used to be", I mean as recently as the late 1800s. Even in the early 1900s, the University of California required entrance exams in Latin and Classical Greek.
DeleteThe early majors were just options to do a bit of anatomy or law or theology alongside the humanistic curriculum. By and by the humanistic curriculum was reduced to a few "core" courses (English 101 and the like) and an assortment of electives.
Not so very long ago, people who wanted to work as accountants, secretaries, or schoolteachers went to little two-year colleges for the purpose. There was no such thing as majoring in accounting or elementary education. Today the universities offer not only those majors but a plethora of funky ones that until recent years were inconceivable, such as interior decorating and golf-course management. Meanwhile there are fewer and fewer places to study Latin and Greek.
And indeed the ubiquity of bachelor's degrees degrades them. A bachelor's degree used to be a mark of distinction. Now it's just another high-school diploma.
You may be able to get Fussell's book at your library, either directly or via interlibrary loan.
The number of Americans with graduate degrees has more than doubled since 2000 according to US Census. The number of jobs that actually requires a graduate degree haven't doubled. Rather than an investment in "human capital" the result was a vicious competition for scarce job opportunities.
Delete@10:43, that's the degree inflation at work. What used to require a GED now requires a BA. What used to require a BA requires an MA, and so on. The cost of all the degrees not only goes up at the same time as they become less scarce (and therefore less valuable) you also need to pile on more and more of them to stand out from the crowd, just like you need ever-increasing amounts of money to get by as inflation reduces the value of each dollar.
DeleteAlso, the colleges have caught wind of the fact that grad school is where the money is at, because regulator and congressional attention remains more focused on "college" to mean undergrad. What flies under the radar, essentially, is GradPLUS loans.
Stafford loans, you see, have annual and aggregate borrowing caps that function as quasi price controls at the undergrad level. The school's aid package (a mix of loans, scholarships, grants and work-study, plus the Expected Family Contribution from your parents as calculated on the FAFSA based on their income) either does or does not "fully meet need" (i.e. satisfy the tab). If a school cannot "fully meet need" for all its students, it hurts their rankings. So in effect, what they cannot get from parents and from the student's CAPPED borrowing is something the school has to fill the gap for, or it will be marked as having "not fully met need" for that student.
But there's a catch. That's just an undergrad thing. GradPLUS can lend the "full cost of attendance, less other aid." There is no cap. And because congress hasn't quite wrapped its head around "college" meaning anything other than bachelors, its basically a free for all. The school can almost literally print however much money it wants, if they get enough people to enroll. Those grad school cash cow payments can then be turned around and funneled right back to the undergrad and used to help them say they their aid packages "fully meet need" for 100% of their [undergraduate] students, with a nice profit to spare.
12:48: Fussels' book is available on eBay for less than $10.
DeleteGood blue-collar jobs were abundant in the late 1970s. Now they are limited, so loads of people are going after the white-collar jobs. But there aren't enough white-collar jobs to go around, so large numbers of people with a bachelor's degree or more end up pouring coffee or trying to scratch out a living with a "gig" (a term that we wouldn't have used in this way in the 1980s).
DeleteBlue collar jobs are hard work. And still largely male dominated. And the public schools by themselves are not orienting or training either male or female students towards blue collar work, but by their nature towards post secondary education. The only way a child will pick up blue collar work is if a parent or relative has a home workshop, a garage, a business, or some such other situation where they will pick up the trade organically.
DeletePeople rush to pursue allegedly promising lines of work without considering the lag time required to break into them. Petroleum engineering was a hot field some years ago, but plenty of people found it to be glutted by the time they had the required qualifications.
ReplyDeleteMost college graduates can't explain the basic difference between Plato and Aristotle, in terms of philosophical outlook.
ReplyDeleteRaphaël depicted it, albeit in a simplistic way, in one small part of one of his paintings. But indeed there aren't many college graduates who have read a page of Plato or Aristotle.
DeleteIndeed, every non-philosophy graduate couldn't. So all those STEM majors people insist are the only respectable college majors, are now in this example, disrespected.
DeleteAnd that's the problem with most of these discussions, illogical contradictory talking points short of analysis, reasoning and facts. The comments in here largely ignore the article, the posters instead rushing to pass judgment on others and make up their own version of reality, too lazy to actually look up or provide facts.
Well, Old Guy can do it, without having majored in philosophy (or even taken a course in philosophy).
DeleteSTEM (a term that was unknown to Old Guy until a decade ago) is overrated, again because things have changed since the days of the baby boomers. Majoring in biology or physics is no longer a ticket to well-paid employment. Engineering is essentially professional training; the natural sciences and math are not.
I doubt it.
DeleteAnd in petroleum engineering, even if the market is good and the pay is good, there are sacrifices to be made if you want to stay in the company's good graces and/or move up the corporate ladder.
ReplyDeleteI know several petroleum engineers; all were required to take a 2-3 your tour overseas...and not to London or Paris. Instead, the most likely spots were central Asia(eg Kazakhistan) or equitorial Africa(e.g.Equitorial Guinea).
I knew you were the publisher of this article Old-Guy without looking. You like to think yourself as elite because you claim to have gone to an elite law school and thus feel its okay for you to look down on the rest of the lowly unwashed masses. Guess what, there are plenty of very successful people who come out of those non-elite schools too, just as there are those who come out of the non-elite lawschools who are great trial attorneys, and everything else. This may seem strange to you, but some very, very competent people also attend the non-elite schools. Its bad enought that you and the rest of you here attack lawschools below the top whatever, when there are hundreds of thousands of very capable and successful lawyers hailing from below, but now you are going to attack undergraduate school too. I wonder if you have any kids and you have killed their joy of attending whatever college they might be attending because its not good enough for you.
ReplyDeleteSuccessful doesn't equal elite. That car dealership owne who went to Eastern Kentucky in 82 is a widely successful man both financially but also probably personally. However, he's still a pleb and would not be considered elite even by the brokest graduate of a historical college prep high school in the NE.
DeleteIndeed, 8:42, that's Fussell's argument. Class for him is not solely about money. He mentions wealthy people who remain plebeian in outlook. Trump is a prime example: born into billions but at bottom white trash.
DeleteAnyone who has long followed OTLSS will know that I use the word "élite" for academic institutions as a marker of pedigree, not of quality. The élite ones are peopled with the scions of the rich. I warn people—from experience—that they are likely to feel out of place at an élite university if they don't have aristocratic origins.
Old guy is keeping this blog alive to warn future victims of the law school scam. All he is saying is higher education is a complete ripoff and financially ruinous towards a huge number of students. Law is just part of the scam.
DeleteThe undergraduate "Podunk" colleges indirectly benefit from the law school scam. They rape students tuition money for worthless political science or philosophy degrees and tell those students to go to law school. After the students graduates law school unemployed for life or baristas, they law schools' inept career services get the blame for their plight. That is why the law schools got sued for unemployed law grads and. Yet the undergraduate institutions are unscathed.
DeleteMost of the prole class are miserable; whether they have that income they desire or not. They will never be accepted into the elite classes, because membership is by birthright; nobility is not something you can labor for and it never has worked that way.
DeleteThe aristocracy, whether you call them elites or some other name, have simply created a system where the labor classes no longer seek a meritocracy or better lots for themselves and their children. Yet they are perfectly trained to support the system and deny the reality of what it is.
Marxism is frequently misattributed as socialism, wherein in reality it is capitalism. Socialists would probably revolt and seek better lives, whereas capitalism is the one system in world history where the people accept their lots and defend it even as against their own interests. And that was the real definition of Marxism---a socioeconomic system wherein the elite classes maintain power indefinitely and permanently, with no risk of revolution or upheaval.
That must be the most peculiar interpretation of Marxism that I have ever read.
DeleteYeah Marxism=capitalism makes little sense to me. What you could say is that perhaps, communism and capitalism both result in a ruling class, albeit in different ways (dynastically inherited wealth created by passive ownership of stock vs. nepotism/cronyism). But I think that's because the world has never seen a truly communist country, just places that falsely claim to be.
DeleteSee, that communist ideal of the people owning the means of production seems to tend to get perverted such that "the people" ends up meaning "the government." That government in turn tends to be a one-party government so that the country's so-called elections will be a formality. Whatever "democratic" or "workers party" type names it gives itself, in reality it will operate as an absolute monarchy and certainly not one representative of "the people."
Real communism would probably be something more like every company being a co-op owned by its workers (as opposed to passive shareholders who acquire ownership by means of access to the "capital" in "capitalsim.")
But if the government owns everything, which is what actually ends up happening when a country calls itself "communist," then the ruler just gives little fiefdoms to various cronies in exchange for their loyalty and service, creating the ruling class. That's not capitalism or communism. It's more like feudalism.
So, I don't know if communism could work to create a more egalitarian world. Because no country that calls itself communist has ever actually lived up to the name, communism remains a theory that has never truly been tested.
No state has ever claimed to be communist in the sense of having achieved communism, only in the sense of pursuing communism. Marxism has always postulated a lengthy transitional period of socialism, which is all that various states (accurately or otherwise) ever claimed to have achieved. The idea of going directly from capitalism to communism is not Marxist but anarchist.
DeleteAs to democracy, even Reagan admitted that the Soviet Congress of People's Deputies had vastly more turnover than the US Senate. The US has only one party, although it passes itself off as two.
This isn't the place for a lengthy discussion of politics, but apparently there's a need to clear up some basic misunderstandings.
There are massive differences between republicans and democrats, as well as differences within those parties (witness sinema and mccain voting against their own parties to kill a minimum wage increase and repeal of the ACA, respectively).
DeleteThese communist countries call themselves communist and they call themselves democratic when in reality they are neither. The single party of China is the CCP: The Chinese Communist Party. Not the aspiring communist party, not the socialist party. The communist party.
The USA has a lot of problems, and its probably true that more than two parties should have more of a shot (like you see in a parliament e.g. UK where some 11 parties have seats), but its elections are legitimate in both choice and result, and it doesn't claim to follow one political philosophy and then do the opposite.
2:02 I don't understand the point of your post. Old Guy is correct. Communism has always been an aspiration and no country that I can think of has even claimed to have been close to achieving end goal communism. That is the Karl Marx theory where government disappears and people govern themselves without government. The party is called Communist because that is the aspiration. But you say that every country governed by a Communist party calls itself Communist, but that is false. It was the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Repulics. It is the SOCIALIST Republic of Vietnam. I think you are making the same mistake that most Americans make that Communism equates with Totalitarianism.
DeleteThe point at 2:02 was in retort to OG saying "the US has one party that passes itself off as two" and that while I agree that no country has ever become fully communist, I wanted to say that they haven't even moved in that direction really. In fact, what they tend to create goes in the opposite direction which is something more like a feudal absolute monarchy.
DeleteHere's the sad reality: people read these USNWR rankings and actually believe they mean something. It's gotten to the point where it's beyond ridiculous, with categories ranging from Best National University to Best Liberal Arts College...then it branches into geography and then to "Best Value Colleges".
ReplyDeleteAnd it's not only USNWR; there are multiple groups-ranging from Princeton Review to Forbes magazine Best Colleges which supply their own rankings. It's all nonsense.
There may be 200 respectable undergraduate institutions in the US; the rest are, realistically speaking, toilets. Ranking toilets is an exercise in futility. There is some slight merit in ranking the respectable ones, but only to the point of distinguishing the Harvards from the rest.
DeleteOf course, one can easily set up a ranking, if only by using alphabetical order. But the ranking may not have any meaning or validity. "Best college"—by which standard? By the standard chosen by the publisher of a defunct magazine that now seems to survive on the strength of its "rankings" of this and that.
People who don't know that Haverford College is élite and that Coker University is a toilet can easily ascertain these facts by looking at their rates of admission: 14% of applicants are accepted at Haverford, 98% at Coker. Haverford is highly sought after; it can afford to turn six out of seven applicants away. Coker, by contrast, takes practically all comers; its policy amounts to open admission. (Just imagine how bad the 2% rejected by Coker must be.) Selective Haverford is therefore likely to offer some intellectual respectability, with a class of high calibre; Coker can be expected to be peopled primarily with dolts who wouldn't have a prayer of getting into Haverford. Education Coker will be pitched at a decidedly lower level. On a résumé, "Haverford" will attract favorable attention; "Coker" will at best be ignored, and more likely it will brand the bearer as someone who couldn't get into a decent college.
Read the course requirements for the General Education curriculum of a school. Does the college require you to take real colleges classes in Statistics, Chemistry, History, Literature, and the like, or is the catalogue filled with garbage like "Science and Society," "Shakespeare and the LGBT Community," "Spirit of Mathematics," and other massaged junk.
DeleteCourses like those, 12:27, are mocked as "Physics for Poets" and "Clapping for Credit" (low-level music). During the 1990s, the elementary math curricula that eliminated the multiplication table in favor of inventing idiosyncratic ways to perform basic calculations were derided as teaching "math appreciation" in lieu of math.
DeleteThe élite schools often don't have a conventional core curriculum. Harvard and Yale, the last time Old Guy checked, had a few broad requirements such as taking a course or two in each of several categories (arts, natural sciences, social sciences, and the like) and also a couple of years of a foreign language. St. John's College goes to the opposite extreme, imposing a uniform curriculum ("Great Books") for everyone, without any majors or even electives. Unorthodox curricula such as these may also be markers of élite status.
Well, you need two things. Acceptance rate yes, but also yield rate (percentage of admitted students who actually enroll).
DeleteOf course, both numbers can be gamed. You can offer application fee waivers and other recruitment stuff to people you KNOW you will reject to lower the acceptance rate, and you can reject people with numbers way above your medians because you know they're unlikely to take your offer to raise the yield rate. But that's going to just nudge the numbers a little. It's not going to give you acceptance or yield rates that look like those of a truly elite school. But such gamesmanship is an illustration of why ranking toilets is a dumb exercise, as OG said, because that is the sort of thing they do to climb a spot or two in the meaningless exercise of ranking toilets against each other.
Of course, everyone including the schools has to pretend that what they teach actually matters, as opposed to just exclusivity. But that is the reality. These clubs are either exclusive or they aren't, and that is indeed all that matters unless what is being studied is a profession for which there is a severe shortage like nursing. But you can bet: If there were no shortage, even hospitals would hire nurses on prestige. They just can't because they don't have the luxury of being picky. But if that ever changes, well, they would if they could.
It's hard for a no-name school to elevate itself to the ranks of the élite. Most of the élite schools are among the oldest in the US. Élite schools are heavily concentrated in the Northeast, and most of those in other places are in big cities such as Chicago.
DeleteDuke is one of the few exceptions. A financially strained backwater fifty years ago, it whored itself out to rich people. Within a dozen years it was among the élite.
It's possible for law schools to move up a few notches by going from independent to university affiliated. Franklin Pierce and UMass Dartmouth, both in New England did this and went from the bottom of the last tier to around the 35th percentiles.
DeleteThe reason, 1:36, might be that You Ass News relies heavily on "reputation" as measured by a survey sent out to various people (most of whom probably know nothing about the vast majority of law schools). "University of Massachusetts" and "University of New Hampshire" bear the cachet of a state's government; they may be assumed to have legitimacy. Similarly, institutions like Notre Dame whose reputation comes largely from a football team can be expected to do better on "rankings" for that fact alone, even though the football team has nothing to do with the law school.
DeleteCooley affiliated itself with Western Michigan University for a few years (the university tired of the arrangement). Did it rise on those idiotic "rankings"?
@og 1:14 I agree that the bump up for these schools is meaningless and adhere to the premise that 85% of law schools are potentially useless although some in the top half will land jobs. Still, I'm sure that it must burn some of the bottom toilet dwellers that some schools went up 50 schools in the rankings just for hitching their toilets to some mediocre state school.
DeleteI think Cooley's fundamental problem with that affiliation, aside from just being in existence, was the decision to expand the number of campuses to the level of a McDonald's franchise. That cannot provide a look of quality to the one shopping for a law school.
Yes, 1:36. It is absolutely true that a standalone law school will always be a toilet in both perception and reality, and so several schools have affiliated with bigger universities to try and do something about the perception part, if not the reality part. The "reputation scores" is exactly what that is meant to influence. You could survey people about princeton law school and I guarantee it would get high marks even though princeton doesn't even have a law school.
DeleteWitness the most egregious example which was Cooley basically just licensing the name and logo of Western Michigan University. That "affiliation" was not an acquisition and Cooley never did become a true part of WMU. They continued to operate totally separate and I bet if we could see the contracts, it probably really was little more than Cooley just paying WMU a licensing fee each year to call itself "western michigan university cooley law school."
WMU presumably realized that this was just dragging down what little reputation it had and the arrangement ended after six years. The fact that it was so easy to unwind is also telling; it was only so easy to unwind because it wasn't a real affiliation in the first place.
Quite true about "Princeton Law School". Someone told me to be sure to apply to it. That would have been difficult, since I wasn't alive when it closed down—in 1852.
DeleteIf Princeton did open a law school, it would start off in the top seven at You Ass News, and I'd give 50% odds on the top five. A law school at Brown wouldn't do nearly so well—but Brown, as its name suggests, is already in the shit pit of the Ivy League.
The real reputational coup de grâce for a toilet law school would be to hitch itself to one of those football teams that have sort of faux university attached. Many of them, however, already have law schools of their own and don't want to tack an über-toilet on.
1136, you make an excellent point. Yes, colleges do sell worthless degrees for big bucks, partly by telling the "philosophy" majors that their degree has value, if they go to law school. That said, I also believe in buyer beware. I knew exactly what I wanted to do when I attended college, and I accomplished those goals. Most of my fellow college students were just there to have a good time, and many ended up working in menial jobs post-graduation. I don't have sympathy for the partiers then, or now: no matter what the college promised them, they decided to go, often to borrow big, and party hard. . .so they deserve what happened to them afterwards. Unlike other nations the US aggressively promotes college as a 4Y long party, with stupid movies like Animal House and Old School. If person is stupid enough to buy into that, and party hard at college, I sincerely hope they have a really good time, because they will be paying for it with awful times for the rest of their lives.
ReplyDeleteYou can have a work-hard-play-hard mindset. You can be dead serious about academics, do a hard major and get a 4.0 in it but still say that once you've aced that test you're gonna go out and rush the hardest partying frat you can find or whatever. It's not mutually exclusive, but I agree that the culture that glorifies hard partying AND not caring about schoolwork is unfortunate.
DeleteOf course, there's plenty of 4.0s in menial jobs too, and the students were sold a bill of goods when they were barely 18. So its hard to go full caveat emptor on it.
Yes it is. Imagine FDR or any actual old school elite giving a fuck about a 4.0. Only possible PHD grads gave a shit about GPA back in the day and now it's highly grade inflated.
DeleteFranklin Roosevelt, definitely old money, got awful grades at his aristocratic boarding school and at Harvard. His records from Harvard are readily available on the Internet. As I recall, he failed a course on the US government…
DeleteIn Old Guy's younger days, people at the super-élite universities spoke of the "gentleman's C", meaning a grade that is dispensed in lieu of an F out of courtesy. I have read somewhere that changing times have turned it into the gentleperson's B+.
Actually, the point was valuing more than just "smarts" and being anti grindset culture:
DeleteIf you search the internet for the term “gentleman’s C,” chances are you’ll come up with some version of: “a grade given by certain schools (often Ivy League) to the children of wealthy or influential families in lieu of a failing grade” — that’s certainly what I always thought the term meant. But in FDR’s day, the meaning of a “gentleman’s C” was entirely different. A “C” was the grade a gentleman aspired to, so as not to seem too interested in studies and be considered a “grind.” https://fdrfoundation.org/the-fdr-suite/frank-at-harvard-grades/. Much better culture than today. Grades were meant to show the truly gifted and not just stupid competition loke the damn Chinese elite.
Originally it did indeed imply that C was the proper grade for a gentleman and that anyone who did better was probably intellectual—something definitely undesirable among the richest strata then and now. (Flusser points out that one won't find any ideas or thinking at all beyond his upper-middle class). I reproduced an old poem on the subject six years ago:
Deletehttps://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2017/07/lsat-scores-by-major.html
Similar poems from the era mock the diligent student who knew his Latin and Greek grammar well or signed up for challenging classes. (I wrote "his" because at the time there were no women at Harvard or Yale. Yale first admitted them in 1969. At Harvard, they were still segregated in Radcliffe College for decades, as is evident from the film Love Story.)
At Harvard and Yale today, however, it means that a gentleman (or gentlewoman) is entitled to a grade of C or better. This is the meaning that it had when George W. Bush was at Yale.
65 percent of grades in colleges are A's or A-'s. The Gentleman's C is now the Egalitarian A.
DeleteGrade Inflation is destroying the value of education. I went to a well-known large state university in from 88-92. In many, if not most, of my classes only 10 percent of the test scores would get an A. In addition to B's, C's, D's, and F's were handed out liberally. Students were placed on Academic Probation all the time, "failing out", being academically dismissed, was not uncommon. I considered the curve at law school to be more generous than that of college, as the lowest grade anyone ever got in a class was usually a C-. It was just as challenging, percentage-wise, to get an A in a class in 1L as it was in college, but it was darn near impossible to get a D or an F. For what it's worth, some low-ranked law schools engage in "grade deflation" by setting up curves that put most students well below a 3.0 Of course, while those schools do, in fact, fail people out, they accept people who have awful credentials to begin with, so it is a whole different story.
DeleteÉlite law schools typically arrange for all but a few grades to be in the B range (including B+ and B–). Some courses don't have a single A or even an A–. There are a few grades of C+ or C; anything lower is rare. The effect is to treat everyone the same, as if there were no distinctions.
DeleteRemember that old book One L by Scott Turow? He recounts a Harvard where the prof was like "look left, look right, one of the three of you won't be here next year." Old school socratic method was a brutal tournament model: Ruthless cold-calling and a plan to flunk out a third of the people from the get-go.
DeleteI've heard that Cooley actually still does this and plans to fail out a certain percentage from the get-go (to keep people almost certain to fail from taking the bar) but for the most part the bottom of the curve nowadays is like a B- or C+. Not that you'll actually get a job from the bottom of the curve at all but the most elite schools (which is why Yale was able to do away with grades entirely) but everyone can graduate I guess..
Yes, quite a lot of bottom-feeding law schools plan to deep-six a fat chunk of the class after a year or two, so that they can soak up a lot of money without having the shit stain of so many known failures on their record.
DeleteData on admissions:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/04/09/a-majority-of-u-s-colleges-admit-most-students-who-apply/
Of the 1364 four-year undergraduate institutions considered, more than 80% admitted half or more of their applicants in 2017. Only 3.3% admitted 20% or fewer.
Speaking of colleges and law schools. Found a law school's career development officer webpage that essentially says our degree as a product as purchased "As is" with no warranty. No different than purchasing a used car. Faulkner University School of Law's careers website makes this "promise" about their graduates being employed. Notice there is no guarantee? Essentially a disclaimer:
ReplyDelete" The CDO staff does not guarantee jobs or provide placement services but works to empower students and alumni with the skills necessary to conduct an effective job search at any stage of a career. We encourage students and graduates to use the Career Services Office to explore career options and to learn professional skills and techniques that will serve as a framework for career success during law school and throughout their professional careers."
Faulkner is one of the worst of the über-toilets. Empowering people to find jobs? Please. And note "explore career options": in other words, try to get a hamburger-flipping job.
DeleteFaulkner: 159 (tie) on the you ass news "Best Law Schools" no more tiers. Apparently, the best law schools are just about all of them. You can't make this stuff up.
DeleteWhen I went to LS, USnews ranked the tiers in groups of 50. 1-50=tier 1, 50-100=tier 2, 100-150=tier 3, 150+=tier 4.
DeleteThey have long since done away with that, but I still hear phrases like third and fourth tier tossed around a fair amount so in a sense, it endured.
The truth, in my opinion, is that they were right to have tiers. They just drew the lines in the wrong places. Tier 1 would be the top 6, like HYSCCN. Tier 2 would be the remainder of the top 14. Tier 3 is the schools where you can still get biglaw, but only if you're like top 25% which goes down to probably around like #25-30.
Below that they should all be unranked cuz it matters not one whit where the rest of em fall relative to one another. They'll all have roughly the same experience: Limited to local market, absolute top of class maybe gets a job, bottom of class fails the bar, and everyone else better have some major hustle.
Old Guy's well-read "seven tiers of law schools" does more or less what you do: the top tier is only Harvard and Yale; it and the next two tiers combined have only 13 schools and set the outer limit of what could be considered élite; after those, a few dozen are toilets and the rest are über-toilets. The only real distinction between the last two categories is that the toilets might possibly be suited for the rich whereas the über-toilets aren't suited for anyone.
DeleteI think part of the problem is that in the United States we expect every student to go to college even if college may not be right for every student. I believe a better system may the high school system in Germany where they are specialized advanced high schools called Gymnasiums that place high achieving students on the university track while the other high schools called Berufschules are for most students and focus on trade based skills. Students in these high schools often enter an apprenticeship in order to learn a particular trade.
ReplyDeleteAs I've mentioned before, the US seems to fuck things up routinely. Health care, schools, employment, opportunity, the legal system—all are disasters.
DeleteGermany is not exactly a paradise of equality, but it is true that Gymnasium (literally 'place for training while naked', because athletes in ancient Greece plied their trade in the buff) is open to all who meet the required standard, which is high. Berufschule—'vocational school' but without the sad, passed-over sound that that has in English—is a perfectly viable alternative that sets people up for trades without closing the door to university (it is still possible to pursue a degree without having gone to a Gymnasium). As for the universities, they are functionally equivalent; one cannot imagine a "ranking" of universities in Germany. They are also publicly funded, and very cheap for the most part (law school does tend to require a private tutor). Law schools deliberately weed large numbers of people out through series of exams that can be retaken only once or twice, if at all.
In the US, by contrast, the schools tend to treat everyone as being headed for university, regardless of ability—and indeed the universities are full of people who struggle to read or write. The best way forward is a private boarding school, typically in the Northeast, that charges $60k per year or so. Very few high schools prepare anyone meaningfully for a vocation, and manufacturing, formerly important, has dried up over the past 40+ years. Universities are striated, with a tiny élite—again located primarily in the Northeast—that caters to prep-school kids and other scions of the aristocracy. They are also appallingly expensive and much too heavily subscribed, with the result that people borrow a fortune only to end up pouring coffee or gathering shopping carts. Not only undergraduate programs but also law schools cater to the semi-literate and cheerfully confer diplomas upon the hopeless—for a certain consideration, needless to say.
As a result, Old Guy finds himself telling people in the US to avoid even a bachelor's degree unless they're bound for a medical career that requires one (physician or nurse, mainly) or come from big money.
In addition to the Gymnasium for top academic achievement, Wikipedia also mentions the Realschule for middle achievers and the Hauptschule for the lowest achievers. The Berufshule is partnered with German industry as an apprenticeship pipeline. A significant percentage attend Hauptschule.
DeleteI completely agree with you that it makes no sense for the vast majority of college students to enrolled at all. Factually, most are not particularly intelligent, motivated, or hard working, and yes in fact many, many college grads end up working in awful, very low paid jobs post graduation, driving for Uber, stocking shelves at a grocery store etc. That said, they will still keep going. 1) The US pressures just about everyone who graduates from high school to go to college, and pretends that there is some stigma to having a high-paying blue collar job 2) American media portrays college as a 4 year long party, focusing on Spring Break vacations, college football/basketball/fraternities/casual sex etc., enticing young high school students to want to attend 3) "Student Loans" allow kids to have a 4-5 year long party free of charge. Now, as a mature, intelligent adult, you fully understand that getting a Bachelor's Degree in Philosophy, or whatever Liberal Arts degree is likely to lead to a job at McDonald's and a lot of debt, but try explaining that to a party-hearty 18 year old with a 100 IQ. Good luck. As long as the student loan money is free for the taking, the party won't stop, on college campuses nationwide. Factually, partying dolts made it easy for me to do well in college and on the LSAT and in ROTC. It's easy to out grade/outscore/out work lazy fools. If only serious students were allowed on campus, who actually studied for their mid terms and didn't write Term Papers the night before they were due, it would have been much harder for me to outwork them and get lots of A's.
DeleteIt isn't just the partying that makes the college experience appealing. When I was in college, I had a low pressure work study job that I could pretty much go to between classes when I felt like it. If I didn't feel like it, or used up my hours for the week I could go to the student center and drink coffee while reading, completing assignments or studying for exams. No boss looking over you shoulder, interrupting or chastising. It wasn't a reflection of the real world because I was paying for it, but I thought the lifestyle was wonderful.
DeleteThat is exactly the problem. The lifestyle at college can, indeed, be wonderful.. This lures a lot of high school grads who can't even read and write properly to attend. They have 4 fun years, and emerge jobless and deeply in debt. I personally know many families whose kids graduated from college and went on to work at Wal Mart, at a grocery store, etc. One young woman I know just dropped out of college after 3Y, moved back in with her parents and took a minimum wage job at a local grocery store. Realizing that they were now in deep financial trouble, because they had co-signed her student loans (which she had no intent, nor ability, to repay) her parents freaked out and took a massive economic hit. Colleges purposely design luxurious dormitories with big screen HDTV's, wonderful food at the dining hall, etc., to lure the student-loan-conduits in. They also use massive Grade Inflation to keep the dupes there for at least four years. In addition to being unemployed, these students become deeply dishonest. I repaid my student loans, and I will never trust a person who did not repay his or her. They're taught that its perfectly OK to take out massive loans, and refuse to repay them, that this wildly dishonest behavior is perfectly acceptable. It's not just that things are getting much worse in this country, people are becoming more dishonest, and irresponsible, with each passing day. SMH. . .
DeleteAlong with the placement of tangential if not nefarious aspects front and center (football, drinking, libertine sex, and the like) is the infantilization of academic work. Short of not showing up for exams, one can hardly fail out. The courses themselves are often asinine. They can hardly be otherwise, catering as they do to a semiliterate crowd who don't give a shit.
DeleteWhy so pessimistic, Old Guy? I myself went to a college that is similar to "Eastern Kentucky University or Hawaii Pacific College or Arkansas State or Bob Jones" and then the local law school. I am now 39 and proudly sending my oldest son (of three) to that same college. I graduated in debt and no one handed me a job. I hustled to join any scrappy brokerage that would have me and then cold called and continue to cold call as a stock broker/wealth manager until it was midnight ET because West Coast clients would answer at 9pm their time. I did this for years, and would start my day at 6am. I now have an eight figure net worth and am proud to have been an incredible provider to my wife and children, they are grateful for the time I have been able to spend with them while juggling a demanding career. This economy is what you make of it. Instead of farting around waiting for a trust and estate client to waltz through the door, I took initiative.
ReplyDeleteWell, you've got reason to be proud-you helped create the No Call List; must have been a real picnic for people to get your cold calls at 9 P.M.
DeleteAnd you clearly misunderstood the whole point of "elite" when it comes to colleges.
But you're also living proof of the futility of attending college and law school. Based on your bio, it appears you went to college, then law school-for no reason at all. And you either flunked, or just never took, the bar and have never practiced law. So what was the point of attending either? You took on debt for a job that required neither degree.
In addition, the success you tout, apparently obtained by hounding the unsuspecting at all hours of the day and night, could have been obtained with a HS diploma.
And you brag of your millionaire status; how many of you fellow college/law grads can claim the same. A few? Some? None? Most likely "none".
Well done Horatio Alger! (actually a law faculty worker)
DeleteIf you're so successful, why are you wasting your time that's worth $1,000/minute on a blog with us losers?
Delete@12:39PM. I understand your point about "elite" and it is hogwash. A degree does not determine your economic prospects 100%, or even 50%, it is incumbent upon your winning personality and work ethic, at least in sales. I did not flunk out or never took the bar, I am licensed. I just did not practice. And when I call at 9pm (boo hoo, it is not that bad to receive that call), they know damn well I am an attorney. It establishes credibility. A number of my classmates are millionaires, that is not such a big distinction in 2023 with inflation. A lot have a mortgage, two cars, a nice grill, and a boat. Few are divorced, but I am also quite young.
Delete@7:47PM thank you! It was not easy.
@9:37PM Is no one successful supposed to write online? I did not say you all were losers. Some give great advice. Just providing another perspective because there is too much doom and gloom and negativity. Be bold, go West! Carpe Diem! Make things happen. Sell!
12:39p back again-if any of what you wrote is accurate, you are incredibly self-absorbed. Nobody, but nobody wants to be cold-called at 9pm-but it's all about you, so boo hoo, apparently. And how, exactly, did having a law degree give you "credibilty" especially when you are in a field full of MBAs and CPAs...in other words, people with actual training in finance.
DeleteBut I'm with 9:37-if you were truly a Master of the Universe(see Bonfire of the Vanities), you wouldn't be wasting your $1000/minute time with us plebes.
So go visit reddit where you can spin your yarns in perpetuity.
I didn’t say anyone wants to be called at
Delete9pm. Whether they want to is beside the point, most people don’t want any hard sales pitches. I obtained retail clients, not institutional or high net worth. These are teachers, firefighters, small business owners. A lawyer impresses them immensely.
Are you that insecure you don’t think a financially successful person would post on a forum you are on? As one former President would say, Sad!
If they didn’t want to be called then why did you call them? Because of your hopeless self absorption. The only thing that matters is you-in your fictional world as a millionaire.
DeleteOld Guy,
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. I grew up in a poor whiskey tango town. Nobody in my family went to college. I had no idea what the Ivy League was at the time. None of the people I went to high school with were particularly ambitious or academically inclined. While most of the people I went to high school with seemed content with retail, waiting tables, or construction, some of us foolishly believed in the notion that one only need to go to college and we’d have opportunities for high paying easy jobs.
Not knowing anything about college, I believed the garbage about small liberal arts colleges providing a better education. Not to mention, these colleges love to tell you the bogus stat, “the average college graduate earns over one million dollars more than the average high school grad.” This was well before that law prof con man with the bogus million dollar JD claim. So I went to a toilet liberal arts college that touted itself as “a Nationally Ranked Institution” because it was 100 or 200 something on the US News Rankings. In retrospect, none of my classmates came from elite backgrounds. I foolishly thought businesses would hire me with my toilet liberal arts degree. I also had an interest in law school. I believed the lies at that time in the early 2000s that law grads were earning $100k salaries and 99% of grads obtained jobs. I thought if I don’t get a good business job, law school would be a great back up. Very few companies interviewed on the school campus. They all rejected me. There were no local opportunities. The school was located in one of those towns with a factory that closed and pretty much became a dump. It’s now whiskey tango Trump country. And if you don’t believe my anecdotes about this toilet liberal arts college, according to the College Scorecard website the current median salary of a grad 10 years after enrolling is $50k. More importantly, only 58% of grads are earning more than a high school grad. And they are taking on tens of thousands of debt. That’s not an income advantage.
So I foolishly went to a second tier law school and believed the lies about high paying jobs. The class of people there was very similar to my toilet liberal arts school. Despite being on Law Review and good grades, in a purportedly good economy in the mid 2000s, I was rejected by big law, big Fed, prosecutor offices, public defender offices, government, judicial clerkships, and s—t law.
After that, I choose to enlist and volunteer Airborne in the Army when the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were going very badly. I was not a fool who believed in the Iraq war. I was not a fool who thought this was an easy way to get out of a $150k student loan hole. Nobody was joining, so I joined. The Army paid off my $150k+ in student loans from law school and the toilet liberal arts school with student loan repayment, a bonus, and a tax free deployment to Iraq with nowhere to spend my money. I fit in just fine given the class I came from. There were people who flat out said, “I could either work at Walmart with no pension or enlist in the Army and get a pension after 20, I chose the Army.” Another person said, “I grew up in a trailer park. Now my life is much better financially [as a low paid enlisted Soldier] in the Army.” These people made a huge sacrifice though. People died in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am personally friends with people who have permanent physical injuries or PTSD. I personally know people with PTSD who took their life. (Part 2 Below)
The Army also gave me the 9/11 GI Bill. I took advantage of that and went to medical school. The difference in classes between my medical school classmates and the peers in my prior life was stark. My peers attended prep schools, attended Ivy League Schools or the other elites like U Chicago or Stanford, and one classmate’s name was on the building (and needless to say an Ivy grad). One classmate, who of course attended a prep school, was bitter that they didn’t get into Harvard and had to settle for another elite school. They were all very smart, very hard working people who were very kind to me. I had a conversation with the classmate still bitter about Harvard. I asked him about class and education, and talked about my experiences. He said, an elite family would never let their kid go to the caliber of undergrad I had attended.
ReplyDeleteSo yes, everything you are saying is true Old guy. There are a lot of expensive toilet colleges that offer no income advantage. The lower classes like myself go from whiskey tango high to toilet college believing we will attain prestige and opportunity. The elites keep their kids far away from these dumps. They set their kids up for success early on. I met a physician couple spending $40k a pop to send their kids to some fancy prep elementary school. Others just send their kids to a fancy prep high schools. Their kids go to the top colleges and get internships at the biggest and most prestigious companies. The cycle continues as it has for decades.
Thanks for that account. I come from a similar background, although I took a rather different path (there was no question of my joining the army, for instance). You managed to avail yourself of one of the few opportunities realistically open to people of undistinguished pedigree in the US, namely enlistment as a military shit-kicker. You ended up with a good medical career, but you were probably one of the lucky or especially capable ones.
DeleteFussell classifies military officers as "high prole" posing as being in the middle class. Actually, he says that they're on the border of high prole and middle class: middle class because of their imposed obedience to the hierarchy (this being typical of large corporate environments in which middle-class people try to ingratiate themselves), high prole because of their pretentious insistence on "professional" standing. It's that "professional" pretension that throws them into the high-prole category for him.
A lad or lass o' pairts like you may indeed turn a military stint into a professional opportunity, and I'd agree that medicine, construed broadly enough to subsume nursing, is the best choice. It doesn't work for everyone: lots just end up being bilked out of whatever benefits they may get (if they get them at all), especially if they go to some goddamn unaccredited bullshit law school in California from which few people pass even the baby bar. Others may just be content, however, to get a pension along with a low-paying job that, beyond its oppressive shittiness, may not be much worse that flogging junk at Wal-Fart.
I think Fussell is wrong in classifying commissioned officers as high prole simply because they inflate their importance and what Americans call professional, which is just about anything. He probably has a bias against the military. I would place them in middle class.
DeleteOfficers generally need a college degree and have more responsibility than enlisted. They also carry an amount of prestige among some parts of society, although apparently not with academics like Fussell.
Maybe if only looking as the salary the high prole argument might carry some weight but even with that officers, in my opinion are decently paid. An O-4 with 10 years makes about $100k. But there are benefits and allowances in addition to that, medical housing etc. And don't forget college loan debt extinguishment deal. Unlike the Americans, the British tend to ignore salary when assigning social status.
The problem with the legal profession is that even if you go to a top elite law school and do everything right, the top jobs are still horrible.
ReplyDeleteAt least they're unlikely to last more than a few years. Of course, at that point the options are usually worse still.
DeleteThere are so many myths about BigLaw. 1) The myth that attending law school is a good way to get into a large law firm. It isn't. At most law schools only the top 10 percent of the class will even be considered for an interview with a large law firm (top 5 percent for Cravath, Skadden, and other very grade-conscious firms). So at the typical US law school, OCI and Biglaw are entirely irrelevant for 9/10 law students. 2) The myth that its' a great career, 80 percent of first year associates are out after 5Y in a large law firm. At certain sweatshops, like Cravath, tenure of 2-3Y is not uncommon. 4Y college, 3Y law school, challenging 2-day Bar Exam, for a job that may be over with in 24-36 months, that's a terrible ROI. Finally, 3) that BigLaw means big money, right away! It does not. At the 190K per year scale, working 70 hours a week a first-year associate will earn about $50 per hour, pre-tax, with no time-and-a-half overtime pay. $50.00 per hour--the Public Defender's Office will pay "Panel Attorneys" more than that, typically, and still have a hard time finding lawyers willing to work for that wage. A vaguely competent DUI lawyer can earn $1,200 or more in about 10 minutes in a courtroom--some charge much more than that. It would take a new associate lat a large law firm over 20 hours to earn what a bored traffic lawyer earns in 10-12 minutes. . .and what does the traffic lawyer pay in taxes and withholdings on that $1,200. . .maybe 10 percent, 5 percent, or, if he is sleazy enough, he just pockets the fee and pays no taxes at all. It is not uncommon for Criminal Defendants to pay their fees in cash, so you can use your imagination about how much of that goes to the tax man. . .
DeleteYes, biglaw is a closed door for all but the very top of the class at most schools (and no one whatsoever at actual toilets). But at the elite schools it is the good outcome.
DeleteAnd I might add, yes most of them are out in a few years. But everyone knows that going in. That's why they hire in "classes" and refer to former associates as "alumni." Most people aren't realistically hoping to make partner and wouldn't want to work those soul crushing hours forever either; they're in it because it's seen (rightly or wrongly) as the best training there is, meaning they're really in it for the "exit opportunities" (boutique firms, in house counsel at fortune 500s, or certain prestige governmental posts, such as the SEC or a US Attorney district that hires for prestige, like SDNY).
Now, even if you do get an offer from biglaw, it can all go awry very easily. There's a sweet spot right around that 5 year mark, as you said, when the recruiters start calling. If for whatever reason you don't make it that far (such as "getting Lathamed") OR if you stay too long without making partner and then leave without the big "book of business" you'd be expected to have after that many years, you can end up as screwed as everyone else. But if you walk the tightrope successfully, biglaw is not the end; it is the means to an end and that end is the exit opportunities. Kinda like a doctor's residency, really, albeit better paid out the gate.
Yes, Big Law can work out well, IF you get it and IF you keep it just long enough and IF you attract favor from government or a big corporation. Those are big ifs, and the great majority of law students are not even in the running.
DeleteOn "IF you get it", Old Guy mentions himself as an example of being kept out despite being at the top of the class. Discrimination within the legal "profession" is alive and well.
I think that one common theme that we can take from these discussions is the reality that military service may be a necessity for a large segment of the United States population, if they want a guarantee of a middle class lifestyle. Whether, an individual American, feels not cut out for military life, lacks the ability or is even disqualified from serving is irrelevant. When one considers the financial benefits that accrue directly from active duty service and the even greater financial and social benefits that accrue from veteran status or retired military, it is obvious that there is a huge segment of the US demographic that will not have access to these resources other than through the military. Any possible cost, death, disability, is vastly outweighed by the certain rewards.
ReplyDeleteBased on the postings on this site, every HS graduate should join or attempt to join the US military.
That's a sweeping statement, one no more helpful than the suggestions (uttered here over the years) that everyone should try to become a police officer in New York City, a truck driver in North Dakota, or a rural lawyer in Nebraska.
DeleteYes, but the pivotal event in a certain posters life was the military. And from that, enlisted combat job, they were able to pivot from a toilet liberal arts degree, courses taken unspecified and a toilet law degree to an elite medical school. Does all this fit? Maybe if was the island of Ongo Pongo medical school.
DeleteWell I think the core advice is really to get a government job. Last bastion of employment that can only be terminated for cause, which has defined-benefit pensions, and which (due to being supported by taxes) need not worry if the business is profitable enough to keep you, because it isn't a business in the first place.
DeleteMilitary service is a great way to get a leg up for those subsequent civilian govt jobs, or of course you can reup and make a career of it in itself. Either way, I think it is indeed a great option (though I might advise college bound types to go more for OCS than enlisted).
But it isn't the only such option nor is it the one I would suggest for everyone. I would, however, suggest to most everyone that they should try and get government work one way or another, and the higher the level of government the better (e.g. feds better than state, state better than municipal, etc).
And once in, be careful not to rise too high. You don't want to end up in one of the positions that's exempted from merit protection or worse, a political appointee who will be gone when the incumbent is.
I've got a friend who is a lawyer for EPA. She took several months off to travel the country. When I asked how she was able to do that, she said that it's so huge and they have so many other lawyers doing her exact same job, that it'd be unlikely they'd realistically even notice her absence. In the private sector, that'd be a sign you'd be vulnerable to layoff. In government, it's the sweet spot.
This blanket advice-"join the military" is beyond puzzling. It's a punishing lifestyle, what with deployments, remote tours, and the possibility of endless TDYs.
DeleteThis advice also ignore reality. As it was explained to me and my fellow recruits, (direct quote):
"The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things"
Left unsaid was the fact that the other guys would be trying to kill us and break our things.
So yeah, if that works for you, go for it. But telling people to join the military to achieve a "middle class" existence is just wrong.
The rope climbing and chin ups are enough to deter me from the Army and the swimming from the Navy. I can't do that stuff.
DeleteLet's be real: this is America, and there are a lot of scams out there. I think this blog should stay focused on the law school scam.
ReplyDeleteOn a related note, are birth rates actually dropping? I occasionally read/hear hand wringing about that. In my eyes the numbers continue to show explosive, historically anomalous population growth, but the narrative does appear.
ReplyDeleteIf there is really an issue, which again I am skeptical of, then that clearly points to systemic issues, which I think law is just a subset of. So there would be wide sweeping reforms enacted to fix said issues. I would suspect the focus on education and occupations, delaying the prime fertile years while enacting other social barriers depresses birthrates, that seems logical to me at any rate. And since I lack intelligence, either I am woefully off base or the ruling classes will immediately also identify these causes to the alleged problem and will thus out of self preservation correct them. Or maybe the whole thing collapses, but considering people have been making these claims for decades and these issues are not new, that does not seem to be a real viable concern.
One of the underdiscussed causes of the birth rate collapse is the decline in heteronormativity. When 2.1 is so crucial for population stability, you can’t give up any edge.
DeleteDespite what the LGBT lobby would have you believe, the best research out of Europe shows that homosexuals are about 2% +/- of the population; higher for lesbians, lower for gay men. That is not enough to push the fertility rate as far as it has gotten below the "replacement rate" of 2.1 births per woman in the U.S., Europe and Japan, let alone South Korea where it is a little above 0.7 births per woman. In America the outrageous cost of higher education is probably the biggest driving force behind this. I know my wife and I considered it when we quit after two.
DeleteI'm not sure how important prestige is for undergrad, if one is not going to grad school. I've known people from Yale doing nothing special. I know one guy from Dartmouth who lucked out, but only by playing the prole of the fraternity.
ReplyDeleteHow many of these people were hooked up by their family connections?
Prestige is vitally important for things like management consulting, investment banking, hedge funds, etc, because they hire right out of undergrad and then send you back for an (also prestigious) MBA later.
DeleteIt is also vital for getting into something like a funded PhD program at one of the small number of such programs that actually give you a real shot at a tenure-track professor gig.
Also vital for STEM kids trying to break into Silicon Valley instead of slaving away in some insurance company's basement working on SQL databases.
Or for pretty much any graduate program that, unlike law, doesn't rely so completely on standardized test scores to get into the top schools. Try applying for med school with all your science prereqs from community college vs. Harvard. There will be a very different result in terms of what if any med schools admit you, even assuming same MCAT scores.
In fact, I'm hard-pressed to find anything for which the prestige factor of undergrad doesn't matter, except perhaps if your major was nursing.
I have to agree with 12:06. In the late 1980s, Old Guy read that a bank called First Boston had solicited every last member of the graduating class of Yale, and that more than a third of them had applied there. Old Guy had never heard of First Boston: he supposed that it was the Bostonian counterpart of the First National Bank of East Bumblefuck. Well, Old Guy was quite naïve about such things, but one thing is clear: First Boston didn't solicit every graduate of Western Michigan University.
DeleteThe one note of caution that I'd like to sound, in respect of those comments by 12:06, is that prestige is not acquired solely by going to a Yale. That's the mistake of many a plebeian nobody, including Old Guy. The Yales are prestigious because they are full of rich kids. Yes, they sprinkle on a few nobodies so that they don't look like the mother-fucking British royal family. But those nobodies don't necessarily gain any prestige by association.
Jeff Bezos, back in his Wall Street days, hired his now ex-wife right out of Princeton. Her degree? Not accounting or finance or marketing or anything like that. Her degree was in English.
DeleteBut hey, so was from Princeton....
Exactly, 2:11. A lot of places that hire based on prestige don't much care what you majored in. From their perspective, if you were smart enough to get in somewhere like that then you're smart enough to learn whatever they need you to learn (and/or your family is rich enough that you could bring valuable connections for them).
DeleteThat's the primary value of these places to prestige-focused employers. They are a sorting mechanism. And the sorting happens on the front-end at admission. They might as well just hire based on the admission letter and save you 4 years of time and tuition.
Unless things have changed in the past 35 years or so, the Princetons don't even offer majors in accounting, finance, and marketing. The traditional major for the plutocratic class at those élite universities is economics, though English or anything else will do.
DeleteExactly, old guy. Harvard created the MBA programs to provide some practical business 'skills' to its graduates. I think though it was a mistake to call it a Master's degree. As Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull wrote - MBA a doddle mastered.
DeleteRight, OG @ 7:45. The more prestigious the school, the less pressure it faces to offer such "trade school" majors at the undergraduate level.
DeleteI plan on telling my kid that if they get into Harvard or something similar, great wonderful major in whatever you want. But if it's Directional State U and you want me to chip in, it had better be something practical.
CA might do away with the Bar exam:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_JPPTJwe4E
Just when you thought standards could not get any lower.
interesting, especially for one of the states widely felt to have the hardest bar exam of any of them, not to mention no reciprocity (just a slightly abbreviated exam for experienced attorneys from other states) and a "baby bar" that people at unaccredited law schools have to take after 1L to proceed to 2L and beyond.
DeleteAnyway, details of the proposal appear to be that an apprenticeship can substitute for the bar. You work under an experienced attorney for 6 months or so and then submit a "portfolio" of your work which is graded by the state bar and if that grade passes, you get a full license.
Now, I'm a fan of apprenticeship. But I'm a fan of it as a way to cut law school down to one year (1L being when almost all the subjects tested on the bar are taught anyway), not so much as a way to skip the bar exam. That does nothing to reduce the debt cost.
I also wonder how these portfolios would get assembled and graded. I mean, how do you know it was really the student's own work? Most of the tiny solo practices many of these people would apprentice at aren't exactly going to be doing a whole lot of appellate argument or motion practice, and a lot of what they do have is largely cut-and-paste and will, of course, be limited in subject areas to the kinds of cases the firm actually has, not the broad general knowledge the bar exam tests.
Doesn't "portfolio" sound a lot like "life experience", the chestnut of diploma mills? Send us a résumé; on the basis of your "life experience", we'll let you out of any coursework and issue a degree as soon as you have paid our bill.
DeleteThe supposed difficulty of the California bar exam is a myth based upon the flawed notion that a high failure rate means a hard exam. They admit people who did law office study, attended unaccredited law schools, attended state registered (but not accredited by the state) law schools or attended ABA accredited schools. They publish the pass/fail numbers for each group and what those numbers show is that the first three groups, especially the first two, pull the overall pass rate way down. The pass rate for graduates of ABA accredited schools is comparable to the range you'd see in states that only accept graduates of ABA accredited schools.
DeleteUnder the heading: "How worthless is my law degree" others have noted the low cost websites offering will, POAs, etc.
ReplyDeleteWell, you can add AI to the mix if this guy is right:
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/not-law-school-fund-manager-121500002.html
Just watched premiere of 'Survivor' and three of the 18 contestants are lawyers. That's 16.6% while lawyers only make up .36% of the US population. That speaks volumes about the profession.
ReplyDeleteI just had to add that a new season of Survivor just started and as usual there are two or three attorneys present. One is open about being one and another on the same team is concealing it saying she is an office manager. She doesn't want to reveal that she is an attorney because she thinks the others will deem her too smart or strategic and would vote her out. This is a common assumption by attorneys cast on Survivor with their high self-opinions. She asked the other lawyer what it was like to be an attorney and he was like it was hard work but basically just a job. (Apparently, he is an ADA).
ReplyDeleteOld guy - Do you consider attorneys in general to be particularly smart or strategic and would you feel threatened by one? Do you even think that most of them are that good?
No, I don't consider lawyers from North Uhmerica in general to particularly smart, strategic, threatening, or even good at what they allegedly do. I'd disbar 80% today.
DeleteTime was—many decades ago—when I might have given a different answer. I would still give a very different answer for lawyers from Germany, France, and various other countries where legal training is taken seriously and isn't for every knuckle-dragging moron.
I don't know what Survivor is (television? I don't watch television), but it's true that lawyers are known for inflated self-images. Unfortunately, the public supports that by seeing lawyers as being smart and strategic, when many are just stupid assholes.
Old Guy, it is not that lawyers are smart, it is the general public is so stupid. I guarantee you've never spent more than an hour or two in your entire life on social media and reddit. There is a reason why marketing is so pervasive and stupid, it is highly effective and that is what the average person identifies with and enjoys. Same idea for blockbuster movies, and modern major video games.
DeleteA lawyer at least made it through formal higher education and a licensing exam. I used to think everyone at least finished undergrad or was capable of it, but after speaking to more people outside of my social circles and seeing different areas, I no longer think so. There is a reason why education and income levels are so low in certain parts of the US, why some states outright ban education, women's rights, and play endless games to obstruct democracy. It's because it works, because their constituents are so dumb, because people in general are dumb.
The great George Carlin states something to the tune of look at the average person, and realize half the population is dumber than that person. It's barely a joke.
Indeed, 8:54. When you consider the fact that the average US adult reads at about a 6th grade level according to fleish-kincaid studies, even a Cooley grad is quite a cut above.
DeleteHow low that "true average" actually is, is alarming. Without factory jobs, I don't know what there is for truly average people to even do that actually pays a living wage. Guess that is, in part, why they try to essentially hide the people for whom the economy no longer has any use on the disability rolls: https://www.npr.org/2013/03/27/175502085/moving-people-from-welfare-to-disability-rolls-is-a-profitable-full-time-job
I was just pondering what is the definition of a 'profession'? Is medicine a profession? Law, plumbing, prostitution? I remember reading many years ago a definition of what makes a profession to be a field with a sufficiently broad scope of knowledge. The field must also be regulated by a governmental body. Then it gave what the author claimed were 5 generally accepted professions were Medicine, Law, Dentistry, Accounting and Architecture. At that time I believe Accounting and Architecture licenses could be achieved without advanced degrees but nevertheless made the cut. Now Accounting essentially requires a Master in Accounting for CPA and Architecture probably does as well.
ReplyDeleteWithout agreeing or not with those 5, I would add that to be a professional a member must have the authority to act independently and exercise independent decision making without supervision. Therefore, nursing cannot really be considered to be a profession, there is a broad body of knowledge, there is licensing, but nurses do not act independently. However, subsets of nursing, nurse practitioners, some MSNs, might fall within the definition of profession. There might be a debate as whether the body of knowledge is sufficiently broad, but I would think that in this day and age nurses have to absorb and apply as many concepts as lawyers, CPAs and architects.
Also someone may possess a license in a recognized profession such as law, but if they are working under supervision, or in an adjunct field they are not a true professional. Professional implies expertise in a field.
Plumbers, electricians and the like are licensed and often act independently, but the body of knowledge for these fields might not be broad enough to be considered professional fields in the scope of the above mentioned definition. Or either that it is simple snobbery that excludes them as being considered the equivalent of CPAs and Dentists.
According to the wikipedia on "profession," the three original professions were just law, medicine and the clergy. Says the defining characteristic was that a profession is a vocation for which one needs extensive training and which also holds itself to ethical standards.
DeleteSo, I suppose governmental regulation isn't an essential component here. But there needs to be some kind of organized body that regulates the group, if not a governmental entity then some kind of guild or association or accreditation.
That said, in modern lay use I think the term has come to mean any job that does not involve manual labor and which involves the exercise of significant judgment and discretion, which is kinda the concept the FLSA exemption evolved around.
Properly, yes, the only professions are law, medicine, and divinity. The word profession means 'public avowal (of ability)', and those are the three fields that originally counted. Likewise, they are the ones in which a person could be said to be "learnèd".
DeleteThe reality of life for those without college degrees. Without a College Degree, Life in America Is Staggeringly Shorter https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/opinion/life-expectancy-college-degree.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
ReplyDelete@4:56 to the extent that the study is valid, the demographics that are being compared are now elderly. i.e. those with degrees benefited from the post war economic boom with almost guaranteed government jobs, teaching jobs, big corporate jobs all with gold plated retirement benefits. And during their working careers they benefited from lavish benefits, lengthy vacations, salaries to support two homes, naturally their life spans have been extended. But to apply that generation's experience to the current younger generation, Gen Z or whatever, is a complete fallacy. So the conclusion really should be that the life span of a college graduate today will be reduced to being barely better than someone without.
DeleteYeah, by definition you don't know how long someone lived, until they die. But it only stands to reason that the trend would continue **IF** you use college degree as a proxy for sedentary work. Manual labor occupations will, by definition, come with shorter life expectancy and we see this emerge in other ways, such as how so many more blue collar workers take social security at 62 even though taking it early significantly reduces their benefit: https://crr.bc.edu/changing-social-security-whos-affected/
DeleteThe real issue, then, is not the degree but the occupation. In the boomer era, not getting a college degree generally meant some kind of factory job which, though certainly better paying and far more available than today, was still more physically taxing than sitting at a desk. People dying sooner on average after 40-50 years of manual labor than after 40-50 years of pushing paper seems to make intuitive sense.
We might still see longer life expectancies for college grads of this generation because even if they aren't really "using" their college degrees, they still tend to get some kind of office job, even if it's just answering phones or something. But that's not a causal relationship with the degree. At least, not really. It's caused by employers continuing to want college degrees for more or less any job that doesn't involve manual labor, because it's one of the few "cultural fit" type weed-outs an employer can have that doesn't risk getting in trouble with the EEOC.
For anyone having trouble reading the article due to the NYT paywall, google the headline and there are some reprints of the article that are not paywalled.
DeleteI don't think the authors, both Princeton professors, are making the case that the kind of work done by non degreed is what is killing them, although maybe they are, because their counterparts in Europe and prosperous Asia are living to ripe old ages. The thesis of the article seems to be that there is a massive disparity in compensation in wages and benefits between the degreed and the non-degreed which leads to a whole host of social dysfunctions. Their solution to bridge this gap appears to be more unionization, improvements to health benefits. They do argue for lower barriers to entry for sedentary jobs such as public employment but don't argue for an increase in government employment, i.e. there will still be winners and losers, or a radical change in the overall mix in the proportion of manual labor vs sedentary employment.
That was a good article and the fact is, no matter how anti-college this site might be, is that those with degrees are generally much more successful in life than those without. Whether its because those who get degrees are inherently more equipped to navigate life, or the degree provides some sort of beneficial status, it is a fact nonetheless.
Delete@8:41 even stipulating to your statement, the point of the article was not about 'success in life' but life expectancy and according to the authors, in Europe and Asia level of education and occupation does not impact life expectancy, in and of itself. According to the authors possession of a university degree is not a measure in Europe or Asia for predicting whether an individual or social group will reach the upper end of life expectancy, whereas, it is in the United States. The implication is that it is the social welfare net in Europe and prosperous Asia that makes the difference.
DeleteSpace Law at Howard: https://thedig.howard.edu/all-stories/world-space-week-professor-aj-link-proposes-howard-universitys-place-space-law
ReplyDeleteNo question it's an advocacy piece, not genuine research. It ignores environmental facts that cause the spike in certain age goups-eg traffic accidents and deaths due to criminal violence. It doesn't separate out employed in non-college careers-eg tradesmen, etc and doesn't really address disparities in longevity related to gender.
ReplyDeleteIt's just the Million Dollar Degree dressed in different verbiage.
These kinds of articles that compare the United States to Europe and Pacific Rim, such as obesity, health outcomes, education, poverty and now longevity always end in the same way, it doesn't have to be this way. I am increasingly of the opinion that it does have to be this way. These articles comparing the US usually contain some trite comment about the richest country in the world, etc. I have come to the conclusion that the US is no longer a first world country and has descended to second world status and is more on par with regions such as Eastern Europe and sub-equatorial Latin America and is continuing to sink. All the symptoms are present or becoming manifest, the poverty, the underemployment, the lack of public health, the inability of the government to manage its finances, i.e. the now impossibility of balancing its budget, the loss of control of its population growth. Yes, the US has a legacy of being the world's economic and military leader, but that is an accident of history and may not be permanent. Yes, there are pockets of wealth that makes the US appear to be a wealthy country, but Brazil has pockets of wealth as well.
DeleteI get the site, but the larger problem, as you know, is the inflation re the cost of tuition. I went to one of OG's toilets, Loyola LA, and my total cost, never mind any financial aid, was 13.something K for 1L and 3L was 15.something K. A tad under $45K for 3 years. Graduated in '89. I think $45K is just for one year now. That inflation can only be described as obscene.
ReplyDeleteSame thing for undergrad. Went to UCLA and was about $1300 per quarter, so $3900 a year. Now it's some number around $15K a year.
I wouldn't go to bottom pack law school, but if you asked knowledgeable souls re competence of instructors, perhaps a middle of the road state school with in-state tuition would be okay. And by, knowledgeable, I don't mean the law itself. Some, maybe even OG, deride the notion of being able to think critically, but it is indeed critical. As my 1L property professor related, while standing on the desk during first class, what is that building behind ours? A library? All the law is in there. I'm here to teach you how to use it. Next things he said, the two most important items for a lawyer, knowing how to set your fee and knowing how to collect it. Was Gideon Kanner, by the way, the maven of eminent domain in California.
Lastly, as for what I'd do, try litigation. Since if you spank the purported elite in court, and do it often enough, humans will notice. As my first boss put it, for litigators, your law school is first job only, the rest is up to you.
For the bonus freebie, the real question to ask is, how much do you like the job? Since if you don't, never mind the money, your life will be hell. Transactional law aka let us think about everything that can go wrong and protect the client against it. Ambulance chasing me, more broken humans, in each and every respect, that one could ever hope to shake a stick at. Those kinds of things. Also, took near two decades to realize this, but the legal system is simply broken. The law is not so great either. With the not so funny thing being, can read the remarks here re flipping burgers but, hey, at least they keep humans fed.
Yeah, and running that through an inflation calculator, that 45k would be about 110k today. But then I go to law school transparency, punch in loyola, and it says that if you were to borrow 100% of sticker price tuition alone (no living expenses), it'd be 230k. It'd be 350k if you had to borrow for rent too, but the nightmarishly expensive housing market is a separate issue, albeit one that compounds how "not worth it" law school is.
DeleteNow, where this gets interesting of course is the rampant tuition discounting that masquerades as a "scholarship." LST also says that some 70% of students received such a discount, and that the median discount was 40k per year (so 120k for 3 years).
230-120=110. So, if you were to get the median discount, that would actually bring tuition into line with overall inflation. But the real tragedy there is that as far as I know, most law schools are awarding those discounts to buy better LSAT scores to look better for USNews, not because of the person or their parents' financial situation. In other words, merit aid, not need aid, and merit aid is inherently regressive.
Human see, Human do
DeleteJulius is right: Human see, human do.
Delete"Some deride the notion of being able to think critically, but it is indeed critical."
ReplyDeleteAgreed, and I actually think 1L curriculum is really valuable for this. The main reform I would make is to get rid of 2L and 3L and replace them with some kind of paid apprenticeship. The 1L curriculum is actually really good at making you "think like a lawyer" IMHO but I don't think you need more than a year of that, which is why the bar primarily only tests 1L subjects and why biglaw hires at the beginning of 2L year. That change alone would reduce the costs by 2/3rds, while the apprenticeship would do a lot to mitigate the problem of lawyers who can pass the bar but still don't "really" know what they're doing.
There isn't much that law school gets right. But the way 1L is structured is one of the few pedagogical innovations that actually is a good thing, IMHO.
..and an addendum. Many people, including Obama when he was president, have called for the elimination of at least the 3L year. I'd go even farther and get rid of 2L too, but getting rid of 3L would be a really, really good start.
DeleteProblem is, the schools would resist. 3L is a lot of revenue for them and in addition, the fact that it is three years long is what justifies them being able to call it a doctorate. ABA put out a statement that said JD should be treated equivalent to PhD or D.Phil simply because of the number of credits the JD requires, which the ABA said makes up for the lack of a dissertation.
Here is the exact text of the ABA resolution:
WHEREAS, the acquisition of a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree requires from 84 to 90 semester hours of post baccalaureate study and the Doctor of Philosophy degree usually requires 60 semester hours of post baccalaureate study along with the writing of a dissertation, the two degrees shall be considered as
equivalent degrees for educational employment purposes; THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that all appropriate persons be requested to eliminate any policy, or practice, existing within their jurisdiction which disparages legal education or promotes discriminatory employment practices against J.D. degree holders who hold academic appointment in education institutions.
--
As laughable as the idea is that racking up any number of credits can substitute for making an original research contribution to your field, that is the official position of the ABA and one they wouldn't have if it wasn't a 3 year program. Lol.
How absurd! As if it were just about marking time. In that case, the JD should be regarded as equivalent to any three-year certificate from a trade school. Or maybe graduation from nursery school.
DeleteBesides, courses aren't the primary task for a PhD; writing the dissertation is, and it can often take a lot more than three years. And the credits for a PhD aren't along the lines of "Law and TV Shows" or "Intersectional Narratives of the Open Road" or "Hip-Hop and the US Constitution".
The effect of this idiocy is to cheapen the JD. It's just an assortment of credits, nothing more.
Well, this has spread to other professions. Your friendly neighborhood physical therapist now graduates with the title "doctor" after three years of school. Seems like an invitation for confusion, with a plethora of people calling themselves "doctor"-PTs, pharmacists, some nurses, etc etc-but there you have it.
DeleteTrue, 12:23. I see this as a consumer protection issue.
DeleteIt's like look, whatever the technical definition is, the general public usually assumes "doctor" to mean "medical doctor" UNLESS the setting and context makes things crystal clear, like with a PhD professor who is clearly acting in that capacity or a dentist talking to someone who is actually in the chair. But a "doctor of nursing practice" who is also a nurse practitioner, prescribing meds and working in an office with MDs and wearing the same white coat? If they walk in and say Hi I'm doctor so-and-so, this can be really misleading and should stop as a matter of consumer protection and ethics.
My rule is simple: No one other than a medical doctor should ever introduce themselves as doctor except in the specific context to which their doctorate applies, and even then only when there is a near-zero chance of misleading anyone. Otherwise it is pompous at best and borderline unethical at worst.
By convention, only physicians use "Dr" socially.
DeleteI agree that the use of "Dr" by others, except in special contexts as you mentioned, is pompous and even unethical. "Doctor" in Latin means 'teacher', and the word is used in the titles of various degrees because those degrees are, or once were, qualifications to teach. Hence the JD makes one "juris doctor" 'teacher of law', even though we all know damn well that some knuckle-dragging nincompoop out of Cooley is totally unfit for that designation. In practice, however, the public doesn't know that bit of academic background.
Indeed. I think most regular folk, at least college-level ones, are pretty accustomed to calling their professors doctor, so there is some remnant of the old school "teacher" version of it. But I still think even professors should be circumspect in its use, like only use it when talking to students or colleagues. For example, putting it on your plane ticket could lead to some awkward situations, lol.
DeleteIt's also interesting how, despite the commonality of professors using the appellation, law school professors seem to be an exception. I have never met a lawprof who uses it, even though they might be the only JDs who ever really could (and some of them actually have PhDs too).
Speaking of the cooley-ites, I have noticed one somewhat related thing. A pretty good indicator of a bad law school (in my experience) is when a lawyer uses "Esq." to refer to themselves, like when signing a letter. Esquire is the closest thing we've got to an appellation, and though not traditionally reserved exclusively for lawyers, it's become that way somehow. But even now, it's not really good etiquette to use it to refer to yourself. Others may choose to put it on there when sending something to you, that's a perfectly legitimate way of showing respect. But you're not supposed to use it to refer to yourself, and when I see someone doing it, they almost always went to a bad school. Just my anecdotal experience, lol.
Indeed, "Esq." is a courtesy title given to others, not to oneself. One does not give oneself a title. There's a slight exception for "Ms" and "Mr" when gender might not be clear, as with epicene or unfamiliar names. But even then it goes in parentheses.
DeleteI had to tell an assistant not to write "Old Guy, Esq." on my letters; it's just plain "Old Guy", although the recipient, if a lawyer, will probably be addressed with "Esq."
A lawyer I worked with early in my career told me this story from his first week at our flagship state university law school. It involves an exchange between a prof employing the socratic method and a non-trad student in his class called on for the first time:
ReplyDeleteP: Mr. Smith.
S: Actually, it's Dr. Smith.
P: (Feigning being impressed) Oh! Doctor of Medicine?
S: No, Doctor of Philosophy.
P: Ah. . . . Mr. Smith . . .
Showing a PhD off is obviously inappropriate in the context of a first-year law course. Even an MD might be wise not to insist on "Dr" in that context.
DeleteJill Biden's attempt to pass off an Ed.D. as entitling her to be called "Dr. Biden" certainly didn't end well for her, with the added embarrassment of her pitiful "dissertation" posted all over the internet.
DeleteIt might be kinda snobby for the prof to want to be called "dr. smith," but it's more dickish for the student to call them MISTER smith. Regardless of the doctor issue, you should at least call them PROFESSOR Smith.
DeleteWhile I never had a law prof who wanted to be called doctor, I did have lots of undergrad profs that did, and frankly it is appropriate for a Ph.D. when in the specific context of the classroom. But even the ones who did want to be called doctor were also perfectly fine with "professor." Either one conveys sufficient respect. But "mister?" That seems deliberately disrespectful in the specific context of being called on in a classroom.
Uh, 11/13 @ 12:59 p.m., you really need to work on that reading comprehension
DeletePlease put some more posts up. This is a very important site. As inflation steadily rises, people need to think about massive amounts of money being "loaned" to college and law students, most of which will never be paid back. Much of this money goes for "living expenses" aka drugs, alcohol, and Spring Break trips. People who work for a living should be made aware of folks who go on vacation for 7Y--and there are plenty of people who cruise through 4Y college 3Y law school having a blast, living large on "student loans" that they will never repay. It's a disgrace, and this profligate spending, soaring inflation, and rising interest rates are sending the US economy down the toilet. Law school professors and Deans know they are scamming students, they are the first to point out that good jobs are only available for around 10 percent of the class, if you're not top ten percent at a mid-ranked law school, you've likely earned a useless degree. The public needs to be made aware of this terrible situation, funded with their tax dollars.
ReplyDelete