Tuesday, March 24, 2015

The Plural of Anecdote is not Data...


I've…seen things you people wouldn't believe…lawyers doing traffic violation cases for $50. I watched JDs sling lattes in the dark at the local hipster coffee shop near the Golden Gate Bridge. All those…graduates…will be lost in time, like tears…in…rain. Time to do doc review…



...but when does it become data?  When N = 15?  N = 50?  N = 10,000 graduates per year?  When does someone finally agree that people are struggling to practice law, not because of their own ineptitude, but because they can't even get started?

By my count, I found that  N was approximately equal to 22 in the case of a thread on JDU that asked about whether anyone had ever practiced law.  The thread and link is reproduced below the break, but a couple of stand-out comments are here.  One is by "bittersweet":


bittersweet (Mar 4, 2015 - 5:40 pm)

'97 Grad. If you are not counting DR, never practiced. I disagree with that assessment BTW, but that's another discussion.

I looked for a "real" job as an attorney for 2+ years before doing doc review full time. By then I was so far behind I had no choice. Even during DR I continue to search for that unicorn - I mean "real" job. I can usually get as far as an interview about every other year or so, but it still hasn't happened.

At this point, looking for a "real" job as outside of law as I can afford while still owing 60K for law school.


The other is from "kansas", a long-time JDU participant, who had the following comment:


kansas (Mar 6, 2015 - 12:44 am)

I wish I had never practiced. I did though, was determined to do it. First: solo shop, split fee. He gave me every bad case that paid $500 up front, I got a few clients after the first year, but I made 13K in year 1 working 70 hours. Year 3, I told him I needed 36k plus a percentage of new biz, but then discovered he hadn't been paying the withholding for the staff (and me) and left. Corp temp for a while, shouldn't have left that probably. A disastrous stint as a state revenue agent (everyone in the remote office I was at was related, and trailer trash, except for me). Back to private practice, a small firm with ex biglaw-ish partners, $40k for me and 70 hours a week, no lie, and no client contact at all - they knew how it was done. Split for another little firm, a distant shirttail relative partner hired me. She died, I carried on for a couple years but the remaining partners decided to axe my practice area, they were PI litigators, I was RE and tax/regulatory, and they weren't ever going to make me a partner or let me develop the practice. So, solo. Did it for some years, it was always hard though I had a few decent business clients. Not enough unfortunately. Lot of small business tax controversy, and I can't recommend that, it somehow never ends up billing out. I managed to get a job with a company that does contracts management for a particular type of commercial real estate. It pays okay and I like the work. But not super stable, it's sort of boom and bust. I am applying for federal contracts mgt jobs like a boss. Wish me luck.




The comments all speak for themselves, but what is striking here is that kansas is the arguable "success" compared to the other posters in the thread, but even then the lack of opportunities, low pay and/or lack of paying clients, difficult working conditions and everything else led to one conclusion - getting out as soon as possible.  Bittersweet graduated long before the Great Recession, the favorite Cartel whipping-boy for why the market seems to refuse to absorb new lawyers at the current rate of production, yet even in the so-called "golden years" things were not rosy and there are still significant loans to pay.

For every ScamDean or LawProf that says that "a law degree is valuable" or "a law degree is versatitle," I would wager there are at least twenty graduates paying on their loans while working doc review, doing non-law jobs, or trying to get out of law altogether who would respond with a resounding "no way!" Valuable and versatile for the law schools themselves, perhaps; not so much for their graduates.

As applications decline, enrollments fall and law schools poach each other's students in internecine competition for income, it is truly gratifying to see actual data have its intended, corrective effects on the law school "market."  It's amazing what a little transparency can do.  0Ls, pay heed to these warnings before making your decisions.






um1l (Mar 3, 2015 - 9:24 pm)

Did anyone under this category ever find a full-time associate position or anything in government?

Reply


jefferson (Mar 3, 2015 - 10:12 pm)

I graduated in 2013 and have not yet practiced, but i just accepted an associate position at a small plaintiff's firm.

Reply


um1l (Mar 3, 2015 - 10:18 pm)

What did you do in the time between LS grad and now?

Reply


jefferson (Mar 4, 2015 - 2:15 am)

Compliance in state gov't

Reply


darkknight (Mar 3, 2015 - 10:40 pm)

Graduated in 2008, never practiced.

Reply


compliancenoob (Mar 3, 2015 - 10:50 pm)

2013, never practiced and not looking back.

Reply


hopelesslyunemployed (Mar 3, 2015 - 11:06 pm)

is document review "practicing law?"

Reply


teddyruxpin (Mar 4, 2015 - 3:17 am)

No, despite the legal ethics debates.

Reply


spaghetti (Mar 4, 2015 - 2:26 am)

Three of my best friends from law school (class of 2011) never practiced. One failed the bar three times and gave up. One passed on the first try, looked for jobs for 2 years, then accepted his stay-at-home-dad status. One passed the bar, looked for law jobs for a few months, got over it and moved on to a different career.

Reply


dupednontraditional (Mar 4, 2015 - 6:39 am)

2005, never practiced, went straight into a "JD-preferred" job in the corporate world. In retrospect I was probably "too old" at the time for law firms, which seems to plague the non-trad set.

Reply


dareidoit (Mar 4, 2015 - 5:50 pm)

How old was "too old"?

Reply


dupednontraditional (Mar 5, 2015 - 1:25 pm)

35. Not that I blame the world wholesale, but it certainly raised a lot of eyebrows and question marks. Luckily I found someone who agreed that my credentials/experience meant something, if not in traditional private practice.

Reply


madathofstra (Mar 4, 2015 - 9:33 am)

2003, never practiced. Plan to be LG after retirement.

Reply


wolfman (Mar 4, 2015 - 6:33 pm)

What's LG?

Reply


thepoporcoming (Mar 4, 2015 - 9:34 am)

2010. Never practiced.

Reply


futuresandwichartist (Mar 4, 2015 - 11:02 am)

2010. Never practiced and gave up trying pretty much in 2010.

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jdsalesinger (Mar 4, 2015 - 11:12 am)

2010 and never practiced a day in my life. Had an easy first job in a different field, so I studied and passed the bar; but its been in inactive status ever since.

In retrospect, it was a great decision.

Reply


whiskeymystic (Mar 4, 2015 - 1:54 pm)

Similar story to dupednt: 2004 grad, passed both bars first time, never practiced. Only every done document review or short-term assignments. Only been inside a courtroom for my own moving violations. Non-traditional law student who never was given a shot.

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wolfman (Mar 4, 2015 - 2:58 pm)

Present. Graduated six years ago, never practiced, and almost certainly (never say never, but...) never will. Four years in a dead-end non-law state job (following "decent" grades at a "good" LS, I couldn't get a law job for all the tea in China), currently doing FL doc review (and happy to have that, knock on wood) while trying to retrain for another career.

Reply


kippi (Mar 4, 2015 - 3:34 pm)

Compliance with one of the state administered federal programs?

Reply


wolfman (Mar 4, 2015 - 6:37 pm)

That's sort of what I used to do (sort of like a career counselor for poor people)... hoping to actually do something useful in my new career (STEM-related).

Reply


wolfman (Mar 4, 2015 - 6:39 pm)

JD-preferred LOL

Reply


bittersweet (Mar 4, 2015 - 5:40 pm)

'97 Grad. If you are not counting DR, never practiced. I disagree with that assessment BTW, but that's another discussion.

I looked for a "real" job as an attorney for 2+ years before doing doc review full time. By then I was so far behind I had no choice. Even during DR I continue to search for that unicorn - I mean "real" job. I can usually get as far as an interview about every other year or so, but it still hasn't happened.

At this point, looking for a "real" job as outside of law as I can afford while still owing 60K for law school.

Reply


elitttist (Mar 4, 2015 - 5:48 pm)

'09 grad here. Never practiced, unless a brief 1099 in-house gig counts. I work in the JD-preferred land of contracts/procurement now and don't plan on looking back.

Reply


um1l (Mar 4, 2015 - 7:06 pm)

My friend is a 2013 FL Tier 2 law school grad, licensed in three states (NY/NJ/FL). Up in NY now and cannot find a job there. Has done fellowships in the DAs, AGs offices since graduation but no permanent gig. Has had about a year's worth of litigation exp, mostly pleadings/motions and even has participated in a depo or two.

1) Should this person move back to Florida?
2) Is there any chance he/she finds a permanent legal job?

Reply


hosea (Mar 5, 2015 - 11:21 am)

Class of 2010. Never practiced, never even took the bar exam. Got a non-legal job in the spring of my 3L year and never looked back.

Reply


newtoboard99 (Mar 5, 2015 - 4:07 pm)

2009 grad. Took 2 bars. Never practiced unless you count a one-year clerkship. Out of the legal field completely. And now I'm even less marketable for a firm job as I was before since I've been out of the field for so long and would be competing with, in theory, even more young lawyers than before. We're talking 5+ years basically. God only know how many law grads these scam schools have churned out over that time. And even if, hypothetically, I was offered a firm job, the pay would have to be right (which it never would be unless it's BigLaw, which I'd never have a chance at anyway).

Reply


boxchequer (Mar 5, 2015 - 5:04 pm)

2013 grad, bottom of the barrel from a T14. Never practiced, but I don't think I ever really wanted to. I went to law school for all the wrong reasons. Anyway I do full-time DR. The pay is surprisingly okay, but it's boring as hell and I want to do something else. I just don't know what that path is.

Reply


um1l (Mar 5, 2015 - 5:10 pm)

Is there a real chance this person (friend) will find a real job though?

2013 FL Tier 2 law school grad, licensed in three states (NY/NJ/FL). Up in NY now and cannot find a job there. Has done fellowships in the DAs, AGs offices since graduation but no permanent gig. Has had about a year's worth of litigation exp, mostly pleadings/motions and even has participated in a depo or two.

1) Should this person move back to Florida?
2) Is there any chance he/she finds a permanent legal job?

Reply


kansas (Mar 6, 2015 - 12:44 am)

I wish I had never practiced. I did though, was determined to do it. First: solo shop, split fee. He gave me every bad case that paid $500 up front, I got a few clients after the first year, but I made 13K in year 1 working 70 hours. Year 3, I told him I needed 36k plus a percentage of new biz, but then discovered he hadn't been paying the withholding for the staff (and me) and left. Corp temp for a while, shouldn't have left that probably. A disastrous stint as a state revenue agent (everyone in the remote office I was at was related, and trailer trash, except for me). Back to private practice, a small firm with ex biglaw-ish partners, $40k for me and 70 hours a week, no lie, and no client contact at all - they knew how it was done. Split for another little firm, a distant shirttail relative partner hired me. She died, I carried on for a couple years but the remaining partners decided to axe my practice area, they were PI litigators, I was RE and tax/regulatory, and they weren't ever going to make me a partner or let me develop the practice. So, solo. Did it for some years, it was always hard though I had a few decent business clients. Not enough unfortunately. Lot of small business tax controversy, and I can't recommend that, it somehow never ends up billing out. I managed to get a job with a company that does contracts management for a particular type of commercial real estate. It pays okay and I like the work. But not super stable, it's sort of boom and bust. I am applying for federal contracts mgt jobs like a boss. Wish me luck.

Reply


2ashamed2showmyface (Mar 7, 2015 - 3:00 pm)

...like a boss? Hope not. Most of our bosses are/were abject idiots.


http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=86399

54 comments:

  1. I graduated in 1993 from a second tier stink pit. A good friend from my class (he had below median grades and no connections) never practiced law a day in his life. In fact, to my knowledge, he never even had a job interview for a legal position. He ended up working in a family business (non-legal) - a job he could have walked into right out of undergrad. Back then, the debt load was more manageable so it wasn’t a financial catastrophe. Still, he wasted three years of his life. The scam didn't begin in 2008. Law school has been a risky proposition for a long time.

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  2. You know, I get the debt, but this wasting three years of life argument simply doesn't cut it in my opinion. We all have a finite number of years to live. Does it really make any difference if you spend three more years "in school" as opposed to the working world. Seems to me school is far preferable to the working world anyway. Once you are out of school life becomes more drudgery, more mechanical. Rather than being in an environment where there is youth and energy and new things to learn all of the time, you now are working a set number of hours per week with deadlines and obligations. Most people are married or getting there, have mortgages, children, etc. Life is way more fun in school. Why is being in law school such a terrible thing? And I can't speak for anybody else of course, but I went to law school a long time ago and I believe I learned a hell of a lot in that school, just like I learned a lot from my BS in Business Administration in Undergrad. Do I regret the opportunity cost of my years in Law School? Heck no. The opportunity cost would have been if I did not go to law school. Now nearing retirement, and having worked as a lawyer for more than thirty years . . . . a few more years in the working world, give or take would have made absolutely no difference in my life. In fact, had I not gone to law school, its hard for me to imagine what I would be doing now instead, but given the underemployment status of many college grads these days, hard to imagine how three years of law school instead (absent the cost of course) is a bad thing.

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    1. "Does it really make any difference if you spend three more years "in school" as opposed to the working world. "

      Yes, and I don't even understand why it's debatable for anyone who lives in the working world.

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    2. 5:58 here, in response to 8:20. I said going to law school wasn't a financial catastrophe for my friend- I didn't say it was free. He still ended up paying roughly $45 K for a useless degree. Unlike many of today's grads, my friend was able to recover from his mistake. But that doesn't mean his mistake wasn't costly - both in terms of time and money. You seem to suggest that people should head off to law school to postpone the "drudgery" of the working world and that "everything will work out in the end." That kind of thinking has sealed the fate of many a lemming.

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    3. No, what I said is the "opportunity cost" is false or at least not significant. Three more years in law school or any school where you can learn something useful is superior to three more years in the working world imho. That with the caveat being your school was inexpensive. I have a relative who recently went to a top four law school but at full pay, so will likely owe 250K or so at the end. She could have gone to a decent but lower tier school on scholarship. I think she was foolish by incurring the debt. Where is a top four going to lead her except into big law where here experiences will likely be limited. On the other hand . . get out of school scott free from debt and you can hopefully write your own ticket. I know others will disagree and say the elite schools may be worth the cost, the only ones worth the cost. I just don't see it.

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    4. "Three more years in law school or any school where you can learn something useful is superior to three more years in the working world imho"

      It depends on what you're studying, but often, you're much better off with 3 years of decent work experience. Even at a crap retail job, 3 years of experience and you're starting to be considered management-level if you're presentable and any good. Try doing that with a non-technical crap master's program.

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    5. Good Lord. Three years in law school isn't fun, isn't interesting and you have to deal with narcissistic professors who are fairly clueless when it comes to issues important to students. If you are going to waste three years, then go do something interesting like travel or cultivate a hobby. If I didn't think law school was going to lead to a career and a middle class lifestyle, then it wouldn't be worth it to spend a day there.

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    6. "Three more years in law school or any school where you can learn something useful is superior to three more years in the working world imho"

      Wow! That has to be the dumbest comment I've ever read. The only useful thing that you learn in law school is the basics of how to be a lawyer (and even that is debatable). If you never get the chance to become a lawyer due to the lack of legal jobs and overproduction of JD's, it was all a catastrophic waste of time and money. Further, as has been discussed here before, more often than not, a JD degree is a huge red flag to prospective non-legal employers.

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    7. I don't get why so many of you learned nothing in law school. I went to law school at night. Students were older and smarter than the day students, and we became a cohesive group and partied every Wednesday night. I honestly believe law school was fun and interesting and I did learn a lot. Law also gave me an opportunity to eventually work for myself, which I have been doing since the late 80's. And I have done pretty well doing contingency fee work against Insurance Companies for breach of contract and PI. Generally made several hundred K per year after expenses. One year made 750K. In 2013 I netted 1.2 million. I am slowing down now, business is not nearly as good, but I think that is because I stopped trying to market myself and I want to close up shop. I am only pointing out my earnings not to brag, but this site is so negative . . . its not like some of us have not had success stories both going to law school and in its practice.

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    8. "Students were ... smarter than the day students"

      And you know that because...? You realize day programs usually have higher LSATs and GPAs, right?

      "I honestly believe law school was fun and interesting and I did learn a lot."

      Then you went to law school either as an extremely boring person, or extremely stupid.

      Delete
    9. ^^^^ see what I mean by negative. The students were far smarter than the day students. We were all working professionals. Some MDs and working engineers in the mix. The day students where children just out of college. Most of the LSAT scores at the time were far higher than the average days students. "Then you went to law school either as an extremely boring person, or extremely stupid.". Of course because you hated law school and all of the other negative people here have nothing good to say about law school, any who don't see it your way are boring and extremely stupid. That's why so many give the opinions of the scam bloggers so little notice. They see you as losers and in many cases they are right. That doesn't mean everybody who went to law school is a loser.

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    10. @10:38:

      No one thinks everyone who went to law school is a loser. Obviously that's not true, as I went as well. But much of what you're saying is completely wrong or wrong-headed, and you come off as stunningly arrogant and totally oblivious to much of reality.

      I was a day student. I was also a mature adult with real-life work experience, and so was half my 1L class. Where/when I went, the school was directing better candidates into the day program and putting the lower LSATs in the night program because it was part of the scheme to manipulate the LSAT ratings. Your experiences in the 80s have virtually no relationship to the present.

      I did not hate law school, but I have to question anyone who found it exciting or enlightening. The most intellectually-stimulating exercises I did in law school involved reading the textbook text between the cases. Case law itself is mind-numbingly dull (and it should be, by design) and often was written by poor writers who have a need to feed their own egos. Classes are brutal unless you are aroused by sophistry and childish word games. The pseudo-Socratic method is a terrible method of teaching anything, as it encourages an obsession on irrelevant minutiae instead of teaching people how to actually practice law.

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    11. All in your opinion. I found the logic of written opinions at times fascinating. It's incredible to me you think your experience and opinions are universal. Talk about arrogance.

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    12. @8:36, I am very happy for you that you live in a state where contingency fees have not been severely restricted by tort reform legislation. The numbers you are throwing around are impossible for a solo in my state. Recently learned that one of my county's most well known and well respected PI lawyers owes the IRS a cool $650,000.00.

      Delete
    13. Yes, in my state, I have gotten fees of several hundred K litigating over very small amounts in dispute with Insurance Companies because the insurer pays the Plaintiff's attorney if Plaintiff prevails, and our Sct. ruled a cap on medical malpractice as in violation of the Constutional and due process. There is no cap on a recovery in a Personal Injury case, and even when there is limited insurance, bad faith can get you over that hurdle. We also have a rule where the loser in any civil case can end up being liable for the winner's attorney fees, so although insurers here are terrible and rarely negotiate in good faith, even small cases can at times turn into big paydays if the insurer is on the hook for those fees.

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    14. 8:36/etc. is the type of lawyer who engenders hatred for the rest of us.

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    15. ^^^^ lol. You mean successful lawyers engender hatred for lawyers in general? or hatred for the oh so negative scam-blog movement, in which so many refuse to recognize that some people actually enjoyed lawschool, enjoyed practicing law, were successful at practicing law. Are the only guys you respect those who found that law school was a huge mistake? What else would most lawyers have done if they were not lawyers? Be school teachers? Would that have been better?

      Delete
    16. Were I you, 8:36/1:32, I would STFU ASAP before you start attracting more lawyers to your state and increasing competition.

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    17. Actually, 2:58, I think that your success has a lot less to do with you than with your living in a state with a government (including judges) elected in campaigns funded with scads of money from trial lawyers. They have obviously set up a system for you in which a tiny number of lawyers and their tiny number of clients rake in huge windfalls. Do you get that the insurance companies never pay you a dime; it is paid by their policy holders. In twenty years of having employees I never fired or laid off anyone, but when the unemployment rate went up I got to pay for the sins of others through higher premiums. You think the innocent people who are forced to make you rich have nothing to complain about?

      I think 2:32 makes a valid point. You are either clueless or are in effect lying by pretending that you are not a part of a big extortion racket that has been rigged in your favor.

      Tell me, if the plaintiff loses is plaintiff's counsel on the hook for the insurance company's legal fees or just the plaintiff?

      Delete
    18. No question that my State's tools enabled me to make some of the large fees I have made over the years, but it still took knowledge, aggressiveness and trial ability to try those cases and win against the large defense firm senior partners. Nothing however was set up to help lawyers. The system was set up to even the playing field against insurance companies who have no qualms about taking premiums but then doing everything they can do to deny or minimize claims. But for the system, the insurance companies would know that screwing a claimant was okay because the amount at issue would be too minimal to litigate. It is a great equalizer. Still, Insurance companies are inherently greedy and they scrape from the bottom of the barrel in hiring and training adjusters who ignore their ethical obligations to treat claimants fairly and instead attempt to minimize payments as much as possible. But I don't want to sound so harsh. God bless insurance companies. Their arrogance and intransigence has made me a lot of money over the years. But for their forcing people to hire lawyers and forcing litigation . . . those large fees would never have been generated. Do you get that insurance companies are thieves? Their executive managements pay themselves millions while they bend over to screw their own insureds left and right? One example, State Farm, who not long ago was a reasonable company to deal with. But the company had no issue with firing a lot of its long time employees and replacing them with brainwashed children who treat claimants like dirt. There is a reason it is referred to by trial lawyers nationwide as Snakefarm instead of Statefarm, and Allsnake . . etc. Having litigated against insurance companies forever, and having defended them in the past, you will never make me feel bad for those greedy bastards and the people who work for them. When they talk about insurance fraud, it is the insurers who commit the fraud . . . almost always against insureds or third parties. And the public knows it which is why direct cases against insurance companies are usually losers for the insurer. Anybody who speaks highly of insurance companies and accuses plaintiffs of being part of an extortion racket have got to be career insurance defense lawyers who sold their souls long, long ago.

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    19. Unlike you I have never touched an insurance defense file in my life nor, in your words, sold my soul. Now answer the question you don't want to answer: "if the plaintiff loses is plaintiff's counsel on the hook for the insurance company's legal fees or just the plaintiff?" Anyone who fights against someone who is not allowed to strike back against them personally is not a hero but a coward.

      And write your own material. Name calling and mindlessly parroting your state trial lawyers' association speaks rather poorly of your intelligence.

      Delete
    20. 2:32 here. My point stands. In every comment, you exhibit numerous traits that make lawyers everywhere look utterly terrible. The fact that you've drunk the kool-aid for so long that you're oblivious to this truth just makes me shake my head.

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    21. 215, I don't respond to demands from those I do not respect. Figure it out for yourself. 5: 12, don't know what you are talking about. Lawyer statutes are perfectly capable of making themselves look bad without any help from me. My experiences and truths are obviously not yours. Thank god.

      Delete
    22. 215, I don't respond to demands from those I do not respect. Figure it out for yourself. 5: 12, don't know what you are talking about. Lawyers are perfectly capable of making themselves look bad without any help from me. My experiences and truths are obviously not yours. Thank god.

      Delete
    23. I would appear to have touched a wound.

      Sincerely,

      2:15.

      Delete
    24. LOL. You have to be a defense lawyer. Full of yourself and nonsensical. Sorry that you work so hard for so little. The better trial lawyers always do Plaintiff's work. Psychologically much more satisfying than representing a soulless insurance company or corporation and becoming soulless in the process.

      Delete
    25. Yeah, I'd say worst traits of attorneys being revealed here:

      -easy butthurt
      -longwinded explanations for butthurt
      -has fully taken a "side" to the point of demonizing the other side
      -completely warped perspective about the legal field ("The better trial lawyers always do Plaintiff's work" is the latest whopper...)
      -has a warped view of what caused success in life
      -completely fails to show any empathy or understand the issues despite celebrating Plaintiff's work, which should, in theory, involve empathy for people who have suffered some hardship
      -injected money as a relevant criterion
      -accuses others of being full of themselves after bragging about success and point of view as the only correct/authoritative point of view.

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    26. "butthurt" = ten year old mind
      demonizing = scamblog movement
      warped perspective=clueless and incapable of knowing or accepting the truth
      warped view of success=anything I am not or will never achieve
      lack of empathy or understanding = scamblog movement
      injected money=scamblog movement
      accuses others . . only correct/authoritative point of view= scamblog movement
      childish / immature / lacking class = many scamblog posters.

      Delete
    27. Please put an end to this dumb discussion.

      Old Guy

      Delete
    28. I posted 6:31's reply. I can't understand it, but maybe someone else can?

      In any event, we're approaching the detracting type of dumb argument like when Brian Tannebaum showed up here. Not much point in engaging in these sorts of things.

      Delete
    29. The butt hurt stops here
      For those who can kiss their own ass
      At six thirty one

      Delete
    30. "LOL. You have to be a defense lawyer. Full of yourself and nonsensical. Sorry that you work so hard for so little. The better trial lawyers always do Plaintiff's work. Psychologically much more satisfying than representing a soulless insurance company or corporation and becoming soulless in the process."

      I thought you didn't respond to people you did not respect.

      And I am not a defense lawyer, I am a retired judge.

      Are you now ready to tell us whether plaintiffs' lawyers have to pay the insurance company's legal fees when the insurance company wins?

      Delete
    31. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

      Delete
    32. Guys, let's end this argument. You've gone way afield of the post and the blog in general.

      Delete
  3. I graduated in 2008 from a 60-ish ranked Toilet. I wanted to practice and did many of the things in law school that were supposed to get me a job as a lawyer: tried for best possible grades, did externships, wrote an article, networked at the local bar association meetings, etc.
    Of course, I didn't know about a little thing called age discrimination.

    Fast-forward 2 years after graduation and I finally get a "JD advantage" job making $10,000/year more than the job I gave up when I matriculated. In no way does it begin to make up for the $80,000 in tuition and three years of lost wages. There's no real hope of "career progression" at this job and little hope of me ever being a real lawyer now. I'm not a stumbling-down drunk yet, but on my way there, and I take sleeping pills to kill the anxiety.

    But it's easy to dismiss us as a bunch of losers and whiners because nobody in America likes to talk about failure. Profe$$ors and dean$ are about selling snake oil and getting those federal loan dollars. Once the bloom comes off the rose in January of your 1L year, they could give 2 sh*ts about the vast bulk of their students.

    I wish I could get through to all those special snowflakes out there who think they're hot sh*t, who want to become Sports or Entertainment lawyers and chill with Brad Pitt and Kevin Garnett. I wish I could tell the Save the Earth types that they'd be much better off just going to work for Greenpeace or the NRDC. I wish I could tell the wannabe Biglaw types about all the Biglaw washouts I've seen, and the screaming partners and outright psychopaths that do so well in Biglaw. I wish I could tell the wannabe prosecutors and wannabe AUSAs about how how incredibly difficult these jobs are to get, and how riddled with nepotism state and city governments can be. I wish I could tell them how impossibly boring document review is, and how it's all going to disappear anyway soon with outsourcing and advanced AI tools. I want to reach the 144 LSAT takers, the Infinilaw and Cooley prospects, but they're just too damm stupid to reach.

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    1. "There's no real hope of "career progression" at this job and little hope of me ever being a real lawyer now. I'm not a stumbling-down drunk yet, but on my way there, and I take sleeping pills to kill the anxiety."

      This sounds like me, only better off.

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    2. Sounds a lot like me, except that I attended an élite law school, got the top grades, edited the flagship law review—and am rapidly coming to the end of a federal clerkship, with no other job in sight. I don't drink heavily either, but I probably should.

      Old Guy

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    3. Old Guy - I finished law school when I was 43. Like you, I was on law review, at the top of the class and had a federal clerkship. Unlike you, I attended a toilet. Since finishing (2002), I never had a problem finding a job and worked in pretty good gov't positions. Keep trying and good luck!

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    4. @8:47 -- key difference being that you finished in 2002. It was a whole other economy back then.

      I graduated with rather "modest" (i.e, GPA of 2.75) grades from a tier 2 back in 2004. Despite being "unremarkable" at best, I was able to get some job offers relatively easily at suburban firms near NYC. Five years later, I was able to work my way up to a 6-figure salary, and I continue to work steadily.

      You could not do that today. Aside from the over-saturation, you have a shrinking legal sector. Just not possible.

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    5. Funny, I just recently discussed that very issue at a meeting of Indigenous jurists. In response to the usual observation that many people cannot afford legal services, someone aptly pointed out the unsustainability of the current structure, in which a growing pool of lawyers tries to serve a shrinking pool of rich people.

      Old Guy

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  4. I'm only 2 years into practice and I wish I never had. It somehow manages to be excruciatingly boring while also inducing anxiety over the dumbest fucking things. And in private practice, you have to work 50-60 hours a week to meet the minimum job requirements. Scheduling and taking a one-week vacation once a year induces mild feelings of guilt.

    So not only do you lose three years of your life, you burn hours upon hours off of your non-working life going forward. That 85k they advertise isn't just bogus because the median is lower. It's also bogus because no one understands how law practice can consume the rest of your life until it's being eaten.

    It's true in litigation and it's true with lawyers: most of the winners are actually still losers because they played the stupid game.

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    1. This. This. This.

      Lawyering is unreasonable even when you "win." You work tons of essentially uncompensated hours, the stress is nuts, the base of knowledge you have to have at your fingertips to be truly good is huge, and growing. You get zero mistakes, you get no missed deadlines.

      About that elusive 85k / year job...I found it.

      An 85k/year job is when a "Big Law" associate works 80 hours a week and makes 160k / year. That guy has two 80k/year jobs.

      I know lawyers are bad at math, but aren't our best and brightest able to figure out they actually are not getting compensated well...and they're keeping a tiny sliver of what a client pays for their time?

      You're better off finding some giant corporation to climb inside. Much better off.

      Law is for morons now.

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  5. I graduated twenty years ago and it was tough then but now it is unbelievable. I've seen the beautiful people have the red carpet rolled out for them throughout the years, watched many struggle and witnessed a few fall with some even winding up in prison.
    I paid off my student loans in five years which wasn't easy but at least it was possible. Tuition was ten grand a year back then; today it's over 40k at the same school. That's one big factor to keep in mind...the cost of law school. I also know attorneys who charge the same as they did two decades ago, not because they want to, but because they have to (or someone else will). This profession wasn't the greatest to me and it should have been. It should also be great to all of you, but it isn't. You also know why it isn't, thanks to this site and many others - sites that I only wish existed before I thought of law school.

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  6. I graduated in the mid 80's and now am in my mid 50's. I'd say about 25% of my graduating class is still practicing. Every week or so, I'll think, now whatever happened to X and I'll look them up on LinkedIn. Often as not, they look like hell and under current employment, it'll say something like "Looking For New Challenges" or "Open To New Opportunities." They should relax and accept that their new challenge is unemployment. In this game, one you're out, you're really out.

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  7. I was driving my daughter to school this morning. There's an office building on the way where I know there's a doc review mill hidden away. The thing is, the people I see normally slinking across the street, cigarettes in hand, are the dirtiest, nastiest temps on the planet. No way those guys are JDs. This is a bottom feeder "college grad" doc review mill.

    Lo and behold, across the street at the stop light walks a sad dude from my law school class, looking just like he did in law school. I almost wanted to stop and offer to buy him a coffee.

    This is fifteen years since law school. I got the fuck out a long time ago and called it quits. He seems to have sunk to the shittiest, most degrading "legal" position available.

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  8. I'm a mid-eighties guy, too. T-25. I can honestly say that within five years after graduation (counting what I earned during law school) I had recovered the entire cost of going to law school including opportunity costs because I had doubled my earning capacity, paid only about $8,000.00 a year in tuition and was careful about living expenses (liquor excepted).

    But within ten years of graduation the whole model of what my career was supposed to be vanished as if it had been a picture on a chalk board that was suddenly erased. Had to bail out of a collapsing firm and go solo. Got very lucky and was able to land a part-time state job for twenty years and vested a retirement package. But when the income and benefits from that went bye-bye I decided to let go. Moved into sales, which is the only way to make a career change in your 50's - be able to show what you did for the company in dollars and cents at 5:00 every day. Solo practice left me with zero fear of a kill-what-you-eat compensation model.

    The problem is what @11:10 said. The fees haven't budged in forty years. And I've heard more than a few people comment that you don't see very many young lawyers in the courthouses these days. People in my family tend to live into their nineties, but I will never live long enough to see it stop getting worse and start getting better.

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    1. I am kind of surprised to find so many older lawyers commenting on this blog. I am curious, how did you find OTLSS?

      [I first found blogs when I was already in law school and started seeing first hand how bad the market really was; I was looking to confirm anecdotal evidence. But honestly the blogs were not that easy to find. I found Law School Transparency first, when it was new - then dozens of others. They were not coming up first on Google hits a couple of years ago.]

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    2. @6:49 here again. Typo. Fees haven't budged in 20 years, not 40, but even 40 years ago was not what 45 years ago was. Saw it in the people I worked for in law firms. People who got in in the sixties and very early seventies made fortunes. Mid-seventies, not so much. Eighties, forget about it.

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  9. Thankfully transitioned to accounting firm after realizing in early 2000's after ten years in practice that the bottom was falling out in small firms. In mid-nineties experienced criminal defense attorneys charged $1500 for a 1st dui into a diversionary program. Today experienced criminal defense attorneys still charging $1500 for a 1st dui into a diversionary program. But now every local litigator is also chasing the work. Mills doing the same work for $750. However, most problematic is that many people now realize that you can get into the diversionary program without a lawyer or just use a public defender.

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    1. " . . . that the bottom was falling out in small firms."

      I wish I'd said that. So much said in so few words.

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  10. Laid off from a small firm in Oakland and took a GS-12 job that paid 65K with the Army Corps of Engineers doing government contract law. Truly believe I hit the mega-powerball lottery. This was 1997. Now we get at least 100 applicants for every opening and many, many are big law associates. I do know that several Federal agencies are recruiting for government contract specialists. Non-law, yes but you can't beat the benefits of Federal service with retirement, vacation, and a 45 hour week.

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    1. In my state 100 applications for a state or federal position would be incredibly low.

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  11. To all the law students out there, while practicing in the small to mid-size firm range provides better prospects than solo, at some point, unless you have the clients by the balls, you will be forced out. And in biglaw, you will be forced out much earlier. I see this all the time when lawyers are in the late 40's to late 50's. If you don't have the client contacts, they will find someone cheaper (and that's not too hard) and younger. When you are building a practice, you tend to get cleints who are in your demographic. In US companies, a significant number of employees in their 40's and 50's are also forced out or are effectively demoted. Therefore, your client contacts start dimenishing in your mid-40s. While occasionally you can get lucky and get a new client, it's not something to count on. The best you can hope for in your 50's is a controlled landing and maybe a few years as counsel at the firm with a much smaller paycheck.

    Advice: Let your kids look at porn before letting them look at the glossy brochures from private colleges. Set very strict boundaries about contributing to college and personally, I'd never pay tuition that is more than the flagship state university, and never ever co-sign a loan for a liberal arts degree. A lot of my friends and collegues have been on the business end of a firm layoff and the worst time for that to happen is if your kids are in school, but the problem is far greater if your kids are at some $40K/year tuition private college.

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