tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post7604568096582033435..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Bar Exam Scores DeclineUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-8008228603192156992014-11-15T00:21:03.721-07:002014-11-15T00:21:03.721-07:00Sorry, @1:19, but the scamdeans get no pity from m...Sorry, @1:19, but the scamdeans get no pity from me, because they are part of the problem, if not the cause. If they hadn't been so greedy and eager to increase tuition and get more and more butts in seats because it increased profits, there wouldn't be this problem. Yeah, we would have had an economic downturn that affected the legal field like it affected others. But this downturn has been exacerbated by an overwhelming surplus of graduates caused by deans who didn't care that they got jobs and just saw dollar signs in their eyes at the increases in revenue that more and more graduates brought. <br /><br />Even as it has become evident that we are graduating far more graduates than there are jobs for, you still have deans calling it a mere cyclical downturn. The only ones for which this is 'mere' are the deans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91143408408440800782014-11-15T00:00:29.162-07:002014-11-15T00:00:29.162-07:00I agree. The ABA is loyal to making things easier...I agree. The ABA is loyal to making things easier for the schools and law partners, not the students, practitioners, graduates, or the remaining 95% of the bar. As evidence has shown, they don't care about hordes of unemployed law graduates, whether they are unemployed because of lack of jobs or because they didn't pass the bar. <br /><br />They'll make it so the schools can still maintain their accreditation but won't give a damn about changing anything so the students can pass their bars and actually practice in the field that they spent about $135,000 to enter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11261429505093860572014-11-14T18:02:27.433-07:002014-11-14T18:02:27.433-07:006:20: That unaccredited school in Tennessee is do...6:20: That unaccredited school in Tennessee is doing very well:<br /><br />http://lmu1.lmunet.edu/cgi-bin/MySQLdb?VIEW=/news/view_one.txt&newsid=1723<br /><br />http://law.lmunet.edu/2014/04/11/lmu-duncan-school-of-law-graduates-show-strong-performance-on-tennessee-bar-exam/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47563447667789196122014-11-14T09:22:06.336-07:002014-11-14T09:22:06.336-07:00Or Brooklyn is a worse school.Or Brooklyn is a worse school.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-714333490032112082014-11-14T06:44:05.549-07:002014-11-14T06:44:05.549-07:00The median and 25% LSAT scores for Brooklyn Law...The median and 25% LSAT scores for Brooklyn Law's incoming class in 2011 (i.e., the class that took the 2014 bar exam) were 163 and 160. The median and 25% LSAT scores for St. Johns and Syracuse's entering class in 2011 were 160/154 and 155/153 respectively. Thus, the median and 25% LSAT numbers for Brooklyn were substantially better that St. Johns and Syracuse. However, both St. Johns and Syracuse had a higher pass rate than Brooklyn for the July 1014 New York bar exam (87% as opposed to 84.5%).<br /><br />I think that once you get below a certain number, bad LSAT scores (say below 150) translate into bad pass rates on the bar exam. However, when Brooklyn's 25% LSAT number for the entering class in 2011 was 160, I don't know that we can attribute its performance on the 2014 NY bar to declining admission standards. There is a certain amount of randomness when it comes to passing and failing the bar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91346449137634044692014-11-13T23:42:48.487-07:002014-11-13T23:42:48.487-07:00I have read a few interviews with Allard, and he c...I have read a few interviews with Allard, and he comes across as a braggart. Just my impression. But this brag from two months ago is ironic in light of the bar passage results that he is whining about.<br /><br />"Which brings me to our students. They are our purpose, not our excuse for having a law school. We are unwavering in admitting only those who we believe can do well in law school, pass the bar and land good jobs. Given their performance we can proudly say that we know how to pick ‘em."<br /><br />BLS Dean Nicholas Allard, September 14, 2014<br /><br />http://campus.lawdragon.com/2014/09/14/dean-limelight-brooklyn-law-school-nick-allard/dybbuk123https://www.blogger.com/profile/08142974443119061724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-24695193218709214752014-11-13T14:16:35.831-07:002014-11-13T14:16:35.831-07:00@9:35 -- 7:36 here. I think you're making my ...@9:35 -- 7:36 here. I think you're making my point. I said any idiot could see it coming, I didn't say that scamdeans could. They saw only that which confirmed their self-interest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-67076568797477312462014-11-13T10:35:51.587-07:002014-11-13T10:35:51.587-07:00@7:36 -- Actually, I'm not so sure the scam De...@7:36 -- Actually, I'm not so sure the scam Deans did see it coming. Academics live in a total bubble, and can't often grasp what happens in the real world. I honestly believe most of these people were just oblivious to what was happening to their graduates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-34652981895323366582014-11-13T07:24:41.617-07:002014-11-13T07:24:41.617-07:00One thing that's been mentioned before is that...One thing that's been mentioned before is that many of the bottom-feeder schools have students with LSAT scores so low that there aren't hard numbers on likely bar passage rate, because there weren't many. It was known that they were in the region where the probability drops sharply, and I think that we're getting the numbers to find out just how sharply.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-1507928048674503722014-11-13T04:56:49.275-07:002014-11-13T04:56:49.275-07:00JeffM--thanks, thats the point I was trying to mak...JeffM--thanks, thats the point I was trying to make but your comment is a lot more clear than mine lol.BamBamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-38821429382438012532014-11-13T00:50:48.001-07:002014-11-13T00:50:48.001-07:00The likeliest explanation is that the 2014 graduat...The likeliest explanation is that the 2014 graduating class was worse than previous years. The law schools carefully gamed the statistics for the 2011 entering class to hide how much worse LSAT/GPAs were. And this is only going to get worse as standards have dropped steadily since 2011.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-74532025567348497342014-11-13T00:00:15.277-07:002014-11-13T00:00:15.277-07:00Things are looking pretty dismal in Illinois. Of ...Things are looking pretty dismal in Illinois. Of course its well known that schools admit more students with crap test scores and nonexistent writing skills. Now that these poor misguided souls do not have the skills to pass the bar, the law school deans are upset that the State may raise the threshold passing score and make the exam harder claiming that there is no good reason to do so. The 90,000 licensed attorneys in Illinois might beg to differ.<br /><br />http://www.chicagolawbulletin.com/Articles/2014/11/12/Illinois-Bar-Exam-Scores-11-12.aspxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-53351840777095556412014-11-12T21:43:57.139-07:002014-11-12T21:43:57.139-07:00See this post for a good explanation of the discre...See this post for a good explanation of the discrepancy between class quality decline and bar passage score drop: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2014/11/muller-class-of-2014-lsat-scores-.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-71183800176798303552014-11-12T20:36:13.531-07:002014-11-12T20:36:13.531-07:00Look at gambling in the Northeast. Atlantic City ...Look at gambling in the Northeast. Atlantic City casinos are dropping like flies. Connecticut's two Indian casinos are hurting badly, particularly the Mashantucket Pequots' Foxwoods. Other states have grown weary of watching their citizens drop billions out of state and are allowing gambling. If they're going to gamble anyway, why not keep the money at home? <br /><br />Any idiot could see this was coming, and any idiot could see that ludicrous tuition hikes and opening dozens of new TTTs were unsustainable, even without knowing that the profession was going to start contracting.<br /><br />The scamdeans and lawprofs chose to believe that which justified their unjustifiable lifestyles. I see them as being worthy of zero sympathy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-56648595916105017422014-11-12T20:28:10.787-07:002014-11-12T20:28:10.787-07:00A few years after I passed the CT bar exam I recei...A few years after I passed the CT bar exam I received a letter saying that in view of my exceptionally high score on the essays I was invited to be a (paid) exam grader. I declined, being an associate in a firm who had to make hours, and can only assume that it is still done that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-77180101574303929292014-11-12T18:49:08.301-07:002014-11-12T18:49:08.301-07:00Here is how to understand the point:
Group 1: 30...Here is how to understand the point:<br /><br />Group 1: 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 - the median is 50.<br />Group 2: 5, 10, 50, 60, 70 - the median is 50.<br />JeffMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03570176730771111002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-18991933544986818692014-11-12T16:18:21.983-07:002014-11-12T16:18:21.983-07:002013 and 1014 classes? Lawyers cant write no more!...2013 and 1014 classes? Lawyers cant write no more! It is time to make those state bar exams more difficult. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-2623139497081534622014-11-12T14:55:57.428-07:002014-11-12T14:55:57.428-07:00We should compare schools and tiers. If there is l...We should compare schools and tiers. If there is little change among T14 or T1 results then the exam was consistent with previous years. 2013 and 1014 Classes there are very similar in quality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-81438384690036654782014-11-12T12:40:21.839-07:002014-11-12T12:40:21.839-07:00Thank you. Regarding #3, could you please explain...Thank you. Regarding #3, could you please explain what "annual income from 0$ to $149,000 comprises 6% of the attorneys in Illinois" means?Imagining The Open Toadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-33287846743067571282014-11-12T11:14:09.412-07:002014-11-12T11:14:09.412-07:00To be fair to these Deans, the job market was stro...To be fair to these Deans, the job market was stronger once upon a time. Pre-2008, most law school graduates could get a law job, albeit a good number of them would be doing contract work OR work at a small firm making peanuts. Still, that was a job "practicing law," and there was the possibility to move upwards, laterally or into other specialties.<br /><br />Also, back when job hiring was robust more generally, lawyers WERE being hired in non-law jobs all the time. It was much easier to leave the law for something else, and the JD wasn't so much an obstacle (as it seems to have become today).<br /><br />However, where I do fault Deans is in the way they've acted post-2008. The entire culture of legal practice has changed, and now mobility between jobs is gone (and it's unlikely to come back, unless the lawyer supply shrinks). The JD is now seen as an obstacle, given the changes in other industries too. Law schools should have adjusted accordingly, but they did not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84449643275731697962014-11-12T10:55:56.843-07:002014-11-12T10:55:56.843-07:00Some have made very interesting points in regards ...Some have made very interesting points in regards to the numbers below the 25% median LSAT/GPA. As they aren't reported, they could be very, very low and account for the increase of bar failures.<br /><br />And yet the increases in failure rates still seems to me to be much higher than what would have occurred if the NCBE hadn't tinkered with the exam. Anecdotally, some people that I have interacted with who have taken the February and the July bars have said that the July MBE was significantly different. <br /><br />Whatever the case may be: we are in uncharted territory regarding bar exam pass rates and legal education admission standard: <br /><br />1) The NCBE is adding Civil Procedure starting February.<br /><br />2) Overall, the entering credentials of the successive classes are significantly lower than in years past.<br /><br />Finally, add the charted territory of top quartile students transferring up out of lower ranked law schools. <br />Antirohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13353794908230833127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84791758825924443922014-11-12T10:20:15.273-07:002014-11-12T10:20:15.273-07:00In my casual browsing of LST, I've seen lots o...In my casual browsing of LST, I've seen lots of 25th percentile slippage (small drops at 75/50, bit drop at 25). A lot of bottom-feeder schools have extended their lower tails to fill seats. <br /><br />I've also noticed a recurring feature where the GPA holds, but the LSAT scores drop. I'll bet that a lot of the bottom-tier schools are getting more applicants from worse colleges.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-53029698149689260582014-11-12T10:16:50.615-07:002014-11-12T10:16:50.615-07:00"...(b) you have no *recent* *unjustified* vi..."...(b) you have no *recent* *unjustified* violent felony convictions on your record'<br /><br />FIFYBarry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68560741486219483212014-11-12T10:11:51.802-07:002014-11-12T10:11:51.802-07:00IL Atty:
You should be able to get to Article #3:...IL Atty:<br /><br />You should be able to get to Article #3: <br /><br />http://www.isba.org/ibj/2014/11/2014compensationbenefitssurvey5keyfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-39377603976701846352014-11-12T09:01:43.593-07:002014-11-12T09:01:43.593-07:00Cincinnatus--it's been a while since I took st...Cincinnatus--it's been a while since I took statistics too. My point is that averages (mean or median) do not give any idea how wide the range is within a population, e.g. how many outliers in either direction there are. Standard deviation is a measure of how widely values vary in a given population. <br /><br />Applying this to the subject of this post, let's say there are two classes of law school graduates--A and B. Their median LSAT is the same but school A has admitted more bottom-of-the-barrel types in its desperation to keep the money coming in. So even though the median LSAT is the same, school A will likely have a lower bar passage rate due to having a large cluster of students further below the median than does school B.BamBamnoreply@blogger.com