tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post7039822436280042408..comments2024-03-28T07:16:35.912-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Guest Post: We Get Mail - Struggling Solo EditionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-44468616231955079642014-03-20T13:44:05.140-06:002014-03-20T13:44:05.140-06:00"a new case and discovered that my opposing c...<i>"a new case and discovered that my opposing counsel was a classmate from our alma mater"</i><br /><br />A classmate, you say? And from your alma mater, as well?<br /><br />Who'dat thunkit!<br /><br />Well, I <b>guess</b> it seems reasonable on it's face. I'm trying to recall if I've ever run into classmates from schools other than those I've attended...<br /><br />...Lemme see.... Nope! I guess you're right. My classmates did indeed attend my alma mater.<br /><br />Imagining The Open Toadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-4274588402261435392014-03-20T11:05:44.851-06:002014-03-20T11:05:44.851-06:00Which countries are you talking about that have ve...Which countries are you talking about that have very little debt? Sounds like we all should move to these utopian places.<br /><br />My guess is that you're referencing European countries, like Spain and Greece. If you want to believe that those countries are wonderful because they provide "free" health care and higher education, then oh well.<br /><br />By "little debt", presumably you mean little debt to the individual. Those governments that give out these "free" social services, though, are pretty much bankrupt. And, even if individuals have no student loan debt or medical debt, that may not matter if they have no jobs either. The unemployment rate in some of those countries makes you wonder whether all of their citizens went to law school.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-31795902628136191122014-03-20T00:06:23.590-06:002014-03-20T00:06:23.590-06:00http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/ap...http://thirdtierreality.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/appalling-fourth-tier-trash-pit.html<br /><br />From Nando's site, a review from a couple years back. A school like this should be probably be charging no more than $10k tuition per year. Before any "scholarships". Instead it charged, 2 years ago, $32k per year.<br /><br />Over the past 20 years, at least, it seems all ABA accredited schools raised their tuition very high, almost in lockstep. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-38061895045254915012014-03-20T00:00:52.140-06:002014-03-20T00:00:52.140-06:00Perhaps because of my posting two years ago (repro...Perhaps because of my posting two years ago (reproduced above), Appalachian School of Law has altered its description of distinguished alumnus Andrew Call to this: "Currently enrolled in a Master of Public Policy and Administration degree program at Northwestern University; completed LLM degrees in International Business and Trade Law and Information Technology and Privacy Law with honors at John Marshall Law School of Chicago".<br /><br />Gone is the reference to his 176-year juridical pedigree. (Did they finally figure out that flashing aristocracy was no way to appeal to prospective students?) Gone are the articles submitted to (but rejected by) law journals. Instead, we get two or three LLMs and a pending degree in a field other than law. <br /><br />It would appear that this person was unable to make a go of law even after getting multiple LLMs and that he finally decided to pursue a different line of work. Hardly a glorious outcome.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-26340980348922127612014-03-19T21:24:36.857-06:002014-03-19T21:24:36.857-06:007:22 AM, you're not a fool. This forum has ser...7:22 AM, you're not a fool. This forum has served as a form of group therapy for me too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-76207297007785362652014-03-19T19:34:44.895-06:002014-03-19T19:34:44.895-06:00Appalachain is typical of the law schools that ope...Appalachain is typical of the law schools that opened in the last 25 years. They are scraping 40 1L's out of the bottom of the barrel - look at its 509 report! There was never a need for this place. It never should have been opened or accredited. Thanks ABA - you fuckheads!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-73329000352524375762014-03-19T18:59:50.084-06:002014-03-19T18:59:50.084-06:00Thank you for the suggestion. Most of the openings...Thank you for the suggestion. Most of the openings of this sort that I have seen call for experience in compliance or additional qualifications in some technical area (often accounting or finance). I'd eagerly take a job in compliance, if only I could get one.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-19205544303398318982014-03-19T18:48:24.531-06:002014-03-19T18:48:24.531-06:00I wrote about this toilet over at Inside the Law S...I wrote about this toilet over at Inside the Law School Scam. One of my messages (reproduced from http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.ca/2012/09/versus-how-many-graduates.html):<br /><br />More on the Appalachian School of Law. My analysis follows the double line.<br /><br />http://www.asl.edu/The-Program/Outcomes-and-Careers.html<br /><br />Outcomes<br /><br />ASL graduates are prepared to pursue advanced law degrees at graduate and professional schools. Some of our alumni have continued their studies at institutions such as:<br /><br />Tulane University School of Law<br />The University of Missouri<br />The John Marshall Law School, Chicago<br /><br />We have a growing network of alumni who are making a difference in communities across the country through their law practice. They include:<br /><br />Amy Lawrence '08 and Justin Lovely '09, founders of The Lovely Law Firm, Myrtle Beach, S.C.; concentrates in criminal, personal injury, and civil litigation law<br />Andrew Call '07, practices law in Chicago, continuing a 176-year family legacy; submitted numerous articles for publication in law journals<br />Michael Orlando '06, Associate Attorney, Gilroy Law Firm, Tigard, Ore.; primarily focused on defending workers' compensation claims for self-insured employers<br />Yasmeen Gumbs '04, Associate Attorney, mid-size law firm, Manhattan, N.Y.; concentrates in Automobile & Transportation and Insurance, defending no-fault insurance and property damage cases<br />M. Suzanne Kerney-Quillen '03, Deputy Commonwealth's Attorney, Wise County, Va.; prosecutes cases in all courts with a primary emphasis on Narcotics Task Force cases; supervises cases handled in General District Court<br />Kimothy Sparks '04, Director of Risk Management, Patient Safety, and Customer Service, Lovelace Health System, Albuquerque, N.M.<br /><br />=====<br /><br />No graduate is reported as doing advanced study at any university of note. The ones being showcased for their professional achievements are:<br /><br />1) A couple of people who started a little two-person firm.<br /><br />2) Someone who has <i>ended</i> his family's 176-year history in the legal profession by <i>ceasing</i> to practice while "seeking employment with federal courts as a term judicial clerk" (http://www.avvo.com/attorneys/53703-wi-andrew-call-4088548.html). This worthy has "submitted numerous articles for publication in law journals" but appears (I did a quick search) not to have been published anywhere.<br /><br />3) Two people in smallish law firms.<br /><br />4) One deputy state attorney.<br /><br />5) One administrator whose job seems to have little to do with the law and may well not have required a JD.<br /><br />Keep in mind that a law school won't showcase its <i>least</i> successful graduates. This contemptible toilet of a law school is presumably highlighting its <i>best</i> outcomes. And one of them requires birth to a line of lawyers extending back to the Jackson administration.<br /><br />Why the HELL should anyone even consider this godawful dump? Why is it even accredited?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-89748720119541943832014-03-19T18:46:35.286-06:002014-03-19T18:46:35.286-06:00I'm 8:04. To 9:59, I don't buy it. In coun...I'm 8:04. To 9:59, I don't buy it. In countries where the government actually runs health care and all but a handful of universities are public, very little debt is incurred for the use of these public goods. The higher costs in the US seem to be what happens when financial institutions and insurance companies get heavily involved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-69243310003281976462014-03-19T14:04:41.242-06:002014-03-19T14:04:41.242-06:00I like this idea. I think a breaking point in lemm...I like this idea. I think a breaking point in lemming psychology might be seeing a school actually fail. The first thing someone who was / might have considered going to the school will think is: OMG what if they failed while I was there? Who is going to want to hire me when the school no longer even exists? It may turn the attention of would-be students to the apparent stability of the school they are considering, and offer a fresh motive for scrutiny. Getting lemmings to "do some damn research" is essential to changing minds and saving lives. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-86530402705849715562014-03-19T13:28:41.530-06:002014-03-19T13:28:41.530-06:0010:12 AM, I call myself "dupednontraditional&...10:12 AM, I call myself "dupednontraditional" for a reason, and part of that reason is exactly what you described. Law Schools are more than happy to tell you how valuable your life experience is until you graduate, whereupon you find out it isn't.<br /><br />"JD Advantage" (ha) is the "best" path now, most likely, so good luck to you. I and many others have been there.<br /><br />No one should go to law school if it puts them over 30 at graduation, unless you have great connections or enough capital to hang a shingle with minimal loans. That's it.dupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-13966482520550364942014-03-19T12:38:50.406-06:002014-03-19T12:38:50.406-06:00Note to the older law grads who can't get thei...Note to the older law grads who can't get their feet in the door of law firms or corporations as lawyers:<br /><br />I understand your frustration, for you probably would offer the clientele of such places better lawyering than your juniors based on your greater life experience.<br /><br />Given that such logic won't produce a law job, have you explored getting a job with a compliance department at a highly regulated corporation? Many JDs have them and enjoy them. The pay isn't as good as for their in house lawyer counterparts but it can be quite good - and the chances of promotion can be better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-80373340534800837702014-03-19T11:47:05.112-06:002014-03-19T11:47:05.112-06:00Appalachian Law School is teetering on the edge:
...Appalachian Law School is teetering on the edge:<br /><br />http://jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=66749<br /><br />If the school is publically predicting 40 1L's for next year, they are probably looking at 30 or fewer in reality. Now is the time for a concerted push of blog posts targeting this school. If we can discourage one or two dozen of their incoming 1L's from attending, we could push them over that ledge and shut them down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-35896481108082337722014-03-19T11:12:47.508-06:002014-03-19T11:12:47.508-06:00Yes, I considered the issue of age-based discrimin...Yes, I considered the issue of age-based discrimination. I asked about it and was told that my experience and skills would serve me well.<br /><br />I also didn't consider 40 "an advanced age".<br /><br />You say "There is age discrimination everywhere". Well, then, what exactly am I supposed to do: lie down under a bridge and freeze to death?<br /><br />I too took the dates off my résumé and dropped a lot of my experience. Still, I got very few interviews, and not a single offer (other than a federal clerkship). I decided against lying on my résumé (such as by claiming to have graduated only two years before law school) because the ruse might have been held against me as a character-and-fitness issue.<br /><br />I really don't know what my options are anymore. Certainly I don't have the wherewithal, or even the will, to pursue training for some other line of work. And I haven't even been able to find an unskilled job.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-75917500924783471102014-03-19T10:59:43.457-06:002014-03-19T10:59:43.457-06:00It's not a coincidence that the two things you...It's not a coincidence that the two things you mention (higher education and healthcare) are prohibitively expensive and subject to massive government interference at the same time.<br /><br />Everything else is actually getting cheaper and better. Look at what you pay for an iPhone now compared to an Apple 2e thirty years ago.<br /><br />Because education and health care have been deemed to be public goods, which justify the government getting involved, people are worse off. Kind of ironic.<br /><br />BTW, it's been pointed out by others that certain medical procedures that haven't been deemed as necessary by the government and therefore isn't covered by insurance have actually gotten cheaper over the years - namely, plastic surgery and lasik eye surgery. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-88852148636571400622014-03-19T10:30:47.721-06:002014-03-19T10:30:47.721-06:00Well I have been practicing since the mid 80's...Well I have been practicing since the mid 80's. I graduated from a regional school, had no trouble getting a job first as a prosecutor, than in Mid-Law, where I stayed for four years before I went out on my own . . . and have been on my own ever since. Despite taking a huge hit in the market with the Tech Crash, I still have a few million saved up in retirement accounts. . . and because my tolerance for this profession and the incivility, lack of ethics and unprofessionalism that is so prevalent in the "profession" right now, I am actually considering retiring, although still in my fifties, or at least doing something totally different where I don't have to deal with ass**** insurance defense trial lawyers anymore. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-14769402593659720092014-03-19T08:37:15.175-06:002014-03-19T08:37:15.175-06:00The U.S. is the nucleus of a larger conspiracy to ...The U.S. is the nucleus of a larger conspiracy to make everyone debt slaves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11187523565409600762014-03-19T08:33:54.154-06:002014-03-19T08:33:54.154-06:00anon @ 1:06,
Agree there is age discrimination ev...anon @ 1:06,<br /><br />Agree there is age discrimination everywhere, but I do not think it was foolish of me to think that I could graduate law school at the age of 34. 34 is not old. Obviously, someone in their late 40s who is embarking on a new career as an employee is not going to be considered for hiring by anyone. <br /><br />Unfortunately, I now know that if you're over 30, the red flags go up for legal employers. It's just one more way for them to winnow down a list of candidates.<br /><br />Here's why legal employment is different than companies:<br /><br />Partners at law firms want associates who don't have families or any connections, who can be molded from clay, who don't have the confidence to fight back when they are screamed at. They want warm bodies generating billable hours for 100 hours a week, not an individual with a life. That's it. They don't want nuanced opinions, they don't want someone with experience and a good sense of judgment. They want billable hours to increase their own profits.<br /><br />Partners at law firms are also often threatened by the life experience of older people. A lot of them are straight-up K-JD, and have little experience in the corporate world. <br />I work in house and I can sense the unease a lot of partners have when I start discussing technical things and business strategy. And no, it's not because I'm a sociopath, communicate badly or have bad breath. They simply have no practical experience, and when a person comes in with a deep command of history and facts, they are scared.<br /><br />anon @9:57 AM,<br />I hid my age by limiting the number of years of technical experience on my resume, putting my education on the second page of my resume and omitting my undergrad graduation date. I also considered forging my transcript. I also considered submitting two sets of applications, one with my real data and one which showed me 7 years younger. I wanted to see if there was a discrepancy between interview percentages. I never did this. In the end I have just had to give up on the idea of working for a law firm. <br />That ship has sailed. <br /><br />Maybe you should consider an entirely different line of work? Given that you appear to be even older than me, what are your options?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-30018960262589844592014-03-18T21:04:10.171-06:002014-03-18T21:04:10.171-06:00In the larger perspective, the question that reall...In the larger perspective, the question that really needs to get louder and louder is why in the US people end up with crippling debt from getting an education or getting sick. This doesn't happen in any other country.<br /><br />Someone wants us broke.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-28904126998648971742014-03-18T17:12:43.806-06:002014-03-18T17:12:43.806-06:00Lemmings cannot be reasoned with, but they can be ...Lemmings cannot be reasoned with, but they can be threatened: You will not have a career as a lawyer; you will not own a large house; you will not earn enough to pay off your student debts and you will not get to bang the hot girl because you're wearing a power tie. You will be poor and severely underemployed. <br /><br />How defiant do you feel, Lemming? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-44834527081033815682014-03-18T17:07:41.878-06:002014-03-18T17:07:41.878-06:00" Hardwired at 50% because there is not enoug..." Hardwired at 50% because there is not enough work. And no vocational school that teaches welding hires their own graduates to gin up the employment stats of their alumni."<br /><br />Actually, it's worse, since a ratio of 2 grads for every job means that most of the 'winners' will be paid sh*t for long hours, abuse and insecurity.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-29767222718594147032014-03-18T17:01:02.046-06:002014-03-18T17:01:02.046-06:00Well, 12:07, that is technically the truth and not...Well, 12:07, that is technically the truth and nothing but the truth but not whole truth. In my neck of the woods the going rate for representing the buyers of a house twenty years ago was $600.00. That's $950.00 in 2014 dollars but now the going rate is $650.00. Sell yourself all you want but you're selling yourself for less and less because there is always a bubble out there of recent J.D.s in the process of failing as solos who are driving the rates down in their desperation for quick cash. The real estate lawyers are making up the lost income peddling discount felony defense and the criminal defense guys are taking divorce work to cover what they are losing, to the extreme prejudice of the divorce folks. This vortex will keep spinning until the flood of new lawyers is cut off, and that won't happen until the student loan spigot is shut off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-19895556778573842842014-03-18T15:28:54.266-06:002014-03-18T15:28:54.266-06:00Unfortunately you will dissuade relatively few peo...Unfortunately you will dissuade relatively few people from law school. The ones who can be dissuaded have largely stopped going. Only the lemmings are left. These are the people who have psychologically committed themselves to law school for many years. How do you convince them to give up their "dream"? The only effective way would be to get the government to put serious caps on loans. Which they aren't doing any time soon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-12662100538568296102014-03-18T14:10:12.795-06:002014-03-18T14:10:12.795-06:00I agree with you on the debt. I am thinking in te...I agree with you on the debt. I am thinking in terms of being debt free. That's not something I had to worry about when I graduated in the mid 80's. I paid for my tuition out of pocket back then. Going in the whole for hundreds of K is absurd . . . but of course the entire higher educational system is a scam now. Its not just Law Schools who charge too much. How about 45K tuition a year for a degree in the Humanities? That's what kids or their parents now often pay at elite or not so elite institutions. My own daughter wants to go to the University of Miami which now charges over $1700 per credit hour. I told her that the University of Florida, where her cost (prepaid) will be about $50 per credit hour is where she is going. But these kids get killed with the glossy photos, the marketing . . . how happy they will be at these outrageously expensive undergrads. And I know parents who are taking out loans to send their kids to these schools. Its all a scam and a complete disgrace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-71309887272797412342014-03-18T14:06:00.026-06:002014-03-18T14:06:00.026-06:00There is age discrimination everywhere. I can'...There is age discrimination everywhere. I can't believe that is not something you considered before going to law school and expecting to be hired by a firm. If you go to law school at an advanced age, you go only because you want the education or because you plan on going out on your own. For example, I knew an IRS criminal investigator getting close to retirement. He went to lawschool at night and after he retired, set up shop representing those charged with tax evasion. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com