tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post6842946645264567444..comments2024-03-28T07:16:35.912-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Patent-Law-Light: Same Great Debt, but Less FulfillingUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-17635500774343772692019-10-09T16:53:59.301-06:002019-10-09T16:53:59.301-06:00A really big problem with patent law careers for l...A really big problem with patent law careers for lawyers is this: The existence of PATENT AGENTS. Patent agents do not need to go to law school and do not need law school to prepare and prosecute patent applications at the USPTO (They just have to take the Patent Bar exam just like lawyers). Patent examiners are not even required to go to law school either, they just need a B.S. degree. The patent industry is already bifurcated between patent prosecution and patent litigation. Lawyers typically already do either mostly prosecution or litigation in their practice, seldom large amounts or equally of both. For clients that know better, why hire an expensive patent lawyer for patent prosecution, when a cheaper patent agent who is just as competent can do the same job just as well? This is just another stress vector pointed at patent lawyers that they have to deal with.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-37241745023244669902017-06-26T19:05:31.932-06:002017-06-26T19:05:31.932-06:00If the patent law job perspective is really this b...If the patent law job perspective is really this bad, why there are still many patent attorney job postings on the web? I am very confused and curious. <br /><br />can someone clarify a bit?<br /><br />Can someone shed Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-61530861287882973372016-11-22T19:20:18.545-07:002016-11-22T19:20:18.545-07:00Patent prosecution is the soul-sucking worst. The ...Patent prosecution is the soul-sucking worst. The worst. Oh sure, before I went into it, I naively thought it would be better than bench research because you'd get to learn about the experiments that worked, as opposed to running those stupid experiments for years on end. Clients will be pleased to work with me because I have experience! WRONG. An easy way to think of patent prosecution is this: writing a term paper every day of your life, in your office, with the door closed, & eating a grim lunch at your desk. You could choke to death on an apple while in said office, with said door closed, writing said term papers, and NO ONE would find you for days. They MIGHT find you if they notice you'd stopping billing. (Repeat 6 days per week for 30 years if you are lucky.) Or, a simpler way to think of it would be to imagine your life as a piece of chewed gum on the bottom of someone's shoe in either an urban or rural area. The people who were trained and working in patent law prior to say 1994-1998 were in the right place at the right time. Think Malcolm Gladwell analysis here. They weren't the brightest or the best lawyers or any of that nonsense. They were trained and ready when the patent budgets went high and the economy was zipping along. Interesting to note here that the same folks, who were trained in patent law by their predecessors, didn't see the value of training anyone that came behind them. It cut into their million dollar salaries, silly. Outsource to India and call associates "fungible goods". Professionalism is for chumps who don't have personal bankers! Then 2008 came. Budgets tanked, patent applications dropped. If you didn't have an "E" in your degree, you were hurting badly even with your fancy PhD and all of your Science or Nature or Lancet publications. Now, small to mid size firms are struggling as clients put the screws to them to lower costs and then there are those delusional 'clients' that biglaw won't touch, so guess who they call? They want all of your time, and offer to maybe pay 1K for an application but offer a "stake" in their shitastic invention. Or maybe they start out paying and then stop for no reason. Do yourself a favor and do not go into patent prosecution unless you hate people, hate interacting with humans, love to beg and do legal work for free for people who treat you like crap, and love being treated like human waste. Did I mention 'real' lawyers treat patent attorneys like shit? Just more joys of the profession. Find some line of work that you love and make sure it isn't patent prosecution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-42429056301945944472016-08-17T20:25:52.593-06:002016-08-17T20:25:52.593-06:00Gale - if you are interning with an IP firm - have...Gale - if you are interning with an IP firm - have a frank discussion with the powers that be about your prospect of employment with that firm post law school. Better yet, see if they will kick in some money for you to go. If they are non-committal about post law school employment and are unwilling to help you with the cost - its probably best to avoid law school.<br /><br />FWIW - I am a well employed, well paid, but completely burned out patent lawyer who is looking to leave the profession and do something else. I started at the PTO, moved to big law, went in house, and then back into private practice when the company I was with folded. I'm at a solid firm now making good money, but the hours can be brutal and I am seeking a new adventure. Thankfully I don't have law school debt or golden handcuffs to deal with. However, I do have some very challenging geographic issues.<br /><br />More to the point - the patent law market remains quite saturated. While things are getting better, current graduates have to compete with the glut of patent lawyers minted between 2009-2014 who are still looking for that first job. We receive 500+ resumes for every job opening we post, the vast majority of which are from lawyers who have no or little experience. My firm can't afford to train new lawyers, so most of those resumes head right into the trash. <br /><br />Sorry to be bleak - but the reality is the market sucks for patent lawyers who have less than 4 years of experience. Moreover - I can say with certainty that patent law is not a life affirming occupation.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-54701913480355321452016-07-25T13:28:32.067-06:002016-07-25T13:28:32.067-06:00The author is correct there is a saturation of ine...The author is correct there is a saturation of inexperienced patent lawyers. But what is more disturbing is that after Alice, companies are not willing to pay top dollar for patent prosecution in the software arts. Hence, law firms can only be profitable hiring patent agents and paying them $70k-$110k per year. In other words, if you are a software engineer, you make more money coding than as an entry level patent prosecution lawyer. In other words, it is simply not worth the opportunity cost to get a law degree. The reality is that patent law is very competitive, pay has gone down and a difficult job with limited opportunities. If you are a women the opportunities are better because high tech companies want women in their legal departments to help with their gender balancing. If you are a white male or even worse an asian male - forget it -there is nothing out there for youAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-15686355243543037562016-06-15T00:29:46.894-06:002016-06-15T00:29:46.894-06:00Chemistry PhD from a top ten school here. This dis...Chemistry PhD from a top ten school here. This discussion has been purely about people with engineering backgrounds can anyone offer more insight on people interested in this field with a science background, PhD specifically. <br /><br />I can say that what the above engineer says is the same situation with a PhD chemist or biologist. Funny, we always thought that engineers had it made with some many more opportunities...I guess its the same shit for engineers as well. In science you are better off with a MS degree...a PhD makes you unemployable and you don't make any more money with a PhD Vs and MS in most cases.<br /><br />If you go on any of the blogs frequented by scientists/chemists like Chemjobber or InthePipeline....you will find much of the same horror stories that the patent lawyers on here are posting. That the industry is fucked and everyone is laid off and begging young students to not go into the field and ruin their lives. I guess we have no choice but to just never succeed its starting to seem like. No matter how many degrees you have or from how good of schools, its all useless. <br /><br />If the less degreed = more opportunity paradigm that is present in chemistry/biology is applicable to patent law (which from reading this thread it seems like it is) the best thing to do is pass the patent bar and be satisfied with becoming a patent agent.<br /><br />This is what I was planning to do and considering law school (currently interning at an IP firm), but this thread makes law school seem like a waste of money. I really wanted to change careers because despite what many people think, once you get out of grad school the majority of chemistry jobs (which you can only keep for two to three years at a time) are extremely boring and repetitive manual labor. <br /><br />I honestly don't know what to do with my life. Every thing I try to pursue the internet just shoots down. Gale Betteckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12456357304153609330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-74294722145059808022016-05-10T17:54:43.662-06:002016-05-10T17:54:43.662-06:00Silicon valley engineer here. I can tell you why ...Silicon valley engineer here. I can tell you why we're looking to move into law. In our field you only keep a job for 2-3 years, then either they lay you off or the company goes bankrupt. Then you spend 6 months unemployed, frantically job-searching. If you're lucky you find another tech job, which will last another 2-3 years. The typical career arc in tech is work 3 years, unemployed 6 months, lather rinse repeat... until you hit 45 when nobody will hire you because "OLD", right in time to pay for your kids' college. It's exhausting. It's stressful. We all feel cheated because engineering was supposed to be a golden ticket but the rug got pulled out from under us. Most of the engineers I know are trying to chart a path out of tech. Most engineers don't want their kids to be engineers. So the longing I read on this blog of "I wish I'd stayed in tech!!" is misplaced. The grass isn't greener over here, folks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-4567458521264226632016-02-08T02:38:41.605-07:002016-02-08T02:38:41.605-07:00I was seriously thinking about going to law school...I was seriously thinking about going to law school. I have a BS in chem, MS with distinction in CS, and MS with distinction in cyber security. I was also thinking about taking the patent bar exam and hoping it would assist in getting into a law school. I am 65 yrs old with over 40 years in the CS field as a programmer/engineer and have had my own consulting company since 1981. I have consistently made over $140k/year. After reading this blog, I can say that the information in it has scared the living shit out of me. I think it best that I dispense with the idea of going to law school. At best, I might consider taking the patent bar, but after reading this blog, I have reservations about that as well. Thanks for all the useful information. This blog is an eye opener.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09485522528430762464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-38032482782696456372016-01-08T08:30:51.132-07:002016-01-08T08:30:51.132-07:00Sir:
You are much younger than I am. I have a pate...Sir:<br />You are much younger than I am. I have a patent about an electrical & communication device being infringed by several companies. The case is strong as attested by several law firms. I can pay you to work with me to check on my analysis, discuss its legality, and help me find a good litigator who could possibly be you to assert my rights of licensing. I can afford to pay 50% of a lawyer's salary and bonuses when I receive royalties; such bonus definitely reaches accumulatively in six to seven figures. Since there are about ten potential companies making infringing products with small damages, they would prefer licensing to fighting in court, the collection of such funds will redeem your bonus gradually. Below is my email for a short while.<br />Best regards.<br />n_44k@yahoo.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-75616307750427791612015-12-28T00:09:34.241-07:002015-12-28T00:09:34.241-07:00To Nov. 5 @ 9:20 am:
I can't say for sure what...To Nov. 5 @ 9:20 am:<br />I can't say for sure what the job market will be like for you, since the market depends heavily on the age and technical expertise of each applicant. I can only relate my own experience.<br />I was laid off from a small firm some time back, after 16 years as a patent prosecution attorney. In the heyday of this profession, I would get 5-6 calls a day from recruiters. <br />Now, I send out about a half dozen resumes a week, and rarely even hear back, and have not gotten an interview in months. BTW, I have two Engineering degrees (Mechanical Engrg and Electrical Engrg) with B+ averages (Dean's list etc) and graduated from a second tier law school with honors (and numerous awards and scholarships) in 1995.<br />Since I'm now 56 years old, your situation could be substantially different. <br />First, you should know what area of the profession you want to pursue: prosecution, litigation, licensing or other. Second, you should be contacting people in your preferred area and polling them about the demand for attorneys with your credentials and in your intended area of practice.<br />I note that you don't need a law degree at all to do preparation and prosecution. If it were me, I wouldn't attend law school to do prep & pros. <br />However, if you think you have an "in" doing litigation, it could be lucrative. However, the days in which you could simply proceed blindly are gone. You have to carefully investigate your area of interest before committing years of study and money (you appear to have the advantage of having your tuition paid for, so this may be less of an issue for you) to pursuing this profession.<br />My personal situation isn't that bad. I saved up a retirement nest egg, and don't really need to work again. However, if I were 36, instead of 56, and didn't have money, I'd be looking at a career change at this point.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-46013903775183991732015-11-09T06:31:44.554-07:002015-11-09T06:31:44.554-07:00Can you tell me what was your background in engine...Can you tell me what was your background in engineering? and which law school you went to? so far i have not met any attorney out of job with electrical or computer engineer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-30685446377876590692015-11-07T14:07:14.360-07:002015-11-07T14:07:14.360-07:00I would like to share my experience as a patent at...I would like to share my experience as a patent attorney. I graduated and passed the bar over a decade ago. I was told by everyone that I would be making six figures. However when i failed to land a summer internship at an ip firm i got nervous. I remember it like it was yesterday when i spoke with the "career counselor", and i told her sarcastically that i did not want to wind up on food stamps after law school (i was exaggerating for dramatic effect). I will never forget her reaction: she rolled her eyes and looked at me sternly and said "you will never wind up on food stamps".<br /><br />Well, technically, she was right. I never did wind up on food stamps because ironically, when you go solo, you dont qualify for unemployment. Instead i have gone on several stretches where i have been quasi-homeless (its too humiliating to even elaborate, so dont bother asking). <br /><br />Today, i am working on transitioning to another career. And it has been excruciatingly painful and humbling, and i often ask God what i have done to deserve this. I can honestly answer: nothing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-7261292976532874232015-11-05T09:20:31.815-07:002015-11-05T09:20:31.815-07:00This is really scary :) I just started law school....This is really scary :) I just started law school. I have BS in Computer engineer and CS, and masters in CS. I worked for 5 years as engineer which didnt really took me anywhere as i didnt want to go into management. I just started law school at GW and working as tech spec at a firm. They are paying for my tuition as well and paying me what i made as engineer. Is this a bad move? Should I get back to engineering? I am going to be studying my ass off for next three years working and studying if I continue. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-23127659400810206342015-10-30T14:18:12.909-06:002015-10-30T14:18:12.909-06:00Sorry to hear your story. It is not an unusual one...Sorry to hear your story. It is not an unusual one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22616575490624385172015-10-15T20:41:50.372-06:002015-10-15T20:41:50.372-06:00don't go f...plz don't go!don't go f...plz don't go!wmhdehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01598241820557878311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-38041094479799117952015-10-09T08:15:42.145-06:002015-10-09T08:15:42.145-06:00I read through this page while nearing depression ...I read through this page while nearing depression because work has been sparse and while I have a full time, well-paying job, because i'm non-traditional to some extent, it is very difficult to get a new position. I graduated from law school at age 27 in 2007, but deferred an (my only) offer from a firm in DC because my father was ill. Joined in 2008, but got laid off in 2009 due to the recession. I went back to IT and did that for about 2 years, and then out of the blue, I emailed a patent law firm in my state about a position. I took about a $45k paycut to pursue this position thinking it would get me back in the game,<br /><br />It did, but here I am with 5 years of patent experience, but with a JD from 2007. Law firms look at this with eyes askance, as if they've never seen an aberration in their lives, and it must be a HUGE RED FLAG because in this profession you must not be aberrant or your career will pay.<br /><br />So now I have 5 years of experience, with an 8 year old degree and its very possible I will be laid off soon with no where to go because in-house won't hire me because I only have mid-tier and boutique firm experience and big-law won't hire me because I am non-trad. I can only get work at a bother small firm, with probably significantly smaller pay. <br /><br />If I had stayed in IT, i would be making at least what I make now. Its a more stable market, but it just has less "prestige", which doesn't feed your kids. AlmostUnemployedPatentAttorneyhttp://www.mightnothaveajobsoon.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-38785499346903548422015-08-04T14:10:49.015-06:002015-08-04T14:10:49.015-06:00I really appreciate for this blog and all of your ...I really appreciate for this blog and all of your suggestions... I have Masters in Engineering and was thinking to apply for law school... I am familiar with such scam...After going through this blog and talking to some of my friends I decided not to apply for law school..Just waste of time and energy..U guys saved my time, money and energyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22753589675498535092015-06-02T22:52:57.231-06:002015-06-02T22:52:57.231-06:00Better go get some balanced coverage at your local...Better go get some balanced coverage at your local law school pimping IP law.Law School Truth Centerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166092871374037640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-49969289578375804252015-06-02T22:32:21.825-06:002015-06-02T22:32:21.825-06:00I was wondering why the opinions here were so bias...I was wondering why the opinions here were so biased.... then I read the URL.<br />Nobody but bashers would post here. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-90958673030459151792015-05-17T19:47:42.517-06:002015-05-17T19:47:42.517-06:00Exactly. You dont need a law degree to be a patent...Exactly. You dont need a law degree to be a patent practitioner. You just need to pass the patent bar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91928661245339301582015-05-04T07:45:25.209-06:002015-05-04T07:45:25.209-06:00I forgot to add - wait a year. There is absolutel...I forgot to add - wait a year. There is absolutely no rush, now, as a non-trad. Look into this, do some more independent research, take your time. It's not like the law schools aren't desperate for students. If I went to law school now with the LSAT I had back in 2002, I would be treated like a king now, with scholarships, etc., make no mistake.<br /><br />Again, I use the handle I use for a reason. Don't go. But if you really,really want to go, take your time, really size things up, get the best deal possible. There is no rush.dupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-10206557255704230822015-05-04T07:41:30.540-06:002015-05-04T07:41:30.540-06:00My gut response is: don't go, for all the disc...My gut response is: don't go, for all the discussion enumerated above, full stop. You're making six figures in your late 20s, and with all due respect, it is hard to appreciate how rare that is in the wider world. Things change when you try to buy a home, have a family, etc. etc. etc., even if you think you don't want those things, and the JD will likely be an albatross.<br /><br />That said, if your are a die-hard entrepreneur and must go, explore/study for the patent bar on your own time; there are lots of resources and study kits to give you plenty of eye-strain and perspective. Talk to actual practicing (patent) attorneys THAT YOU TRUST if you haven't already; get the low-down.<br /><br />The only trouble with part-time law school is that law school is prestige-driven. If you are lucky enough to live near a top-tier law school (and, I mean, top-tier) and can go part-time, then you could give it a shot. Pedigree will follow you forever, so aim high.dupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-71584608310937320752015-04-21T22:43:24.652-06:002015-04-21T22:43:24.652-06:00I am about to start law school for patent law. Hav...I am about to start law school for patent law. Have Bachelors and masters in CS/Computer engineering. In my Late 20s and making 6 figures. This post has really scared me. Is leaving my job and city to attend full time law school worth it? I went back and forth between Phd, MBA or Law and decided to go for law school. I start this fall and it is so hard to make this decision. Do you think I should instead keep working as an engineer and go to part time law school? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-70510003103017173542015-02-19T08:31:06.334-07:002015-02-19T08:31:06.334-07:00"...in no small part because some interviewer..."...in no small part because some interviewers couldn't fathom the switch."<br /><br />This is probably THE fundamental roadblock for all concerned. For all the hypocritical talk of being "entreprenureal" and "thinking outside the box," many people and organizations stay firmly within the narrow cookie-cutter confines. Anything that is not a buzzword is de facto confusing and suspicious.<br /><br />That said, the engineering world may actally be more receptive to a music-degree-turned-engineer than a lawyer-turned-engineer, which in and of itself speaks volumes.dupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-64668432561962517912015-02-08T21:30:21.300-07:002015-02-08T21:30:21.300-07:00well I suppose I will get back to writing specs an...well I suppose I will get back to writing specs and designing HVAC and stop daydreaming about a law degree...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com