tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post6700410121847933385..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Law professor hypocrites campaign against paid externshipsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-2768364844387329752016-02-10T07:55:18.522-07:002016-02-10T07:55:18.522-07:00I got mine from the telephone company when I got s...I got mine from the telephone company when I got service at my place. Didn't ask for it, just came in the mail one day.<br /><br />A bonus I missed now I think about it. The back cover of the phone book was an add for a law firm.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00934671962883567010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-21126335264357784102016-02-09T23:08:55.720-07:002016-02-09T23:08:55.720-07:00People still use printed telephone directories? I ...People still use printed telephone directories? I haven't seen one for years.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-28086679107423263852016-02-07T10:04:47.968-07:002016-02-07T10:04:47.968-07:001:00PM--100%--you nailed it.1:00PM--100%--you nailed it.BamBamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57235565540976314072016-02-07T09:41:06.768-07:002016-02-07T09:41:06.768-07:00So true, Old Guy, so true.
In fact, it sounds very...So true, Old Guy, so true.<br />In fact, it sounds very much like the law prawfs and deans are projecting their own greedy selves onto the students.X-RWUnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-88073395474050673412016-02-06T13:01:02.915-07:002016-02-06T13:01:02.915-07:00Also, imagine if medical school classes were taugh...Also, imagine if medical school classes were taught be people who despised practicing medicine and looked down on people who did! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-42567561483240097122016-02-06T09:46:17.341-07:002016-02-06T09:46:17.341-07:00Law professors should all be experienced and capab...Law professors should all be experienced and capable lawyers. Instead, more than three years' experience in practice will spoil one's chances of getting a teaching position (other than as adjunct for $3000 per semester) at any law school. The ideal is about one year. Zero and two years are also common. Three is pushing it. With four, forget it. You're too old anyway.<br /><br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-6505079416369553882016-02-06T09:35:52.593-07:002016-02-06T09:35:52.593-07:00This is a tempest in a teapot, however. There just...This is a tempest in a teapot, however. There just aren't many paid jobs of this sort for law students, or even for licensed lawyers. Maybe 3½ law students would get paid internships.<br /><br />Count on law profe$$ors to raise a hue and cry (on the wrong side) over something insignificant while not uttering a peep about any major issue.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57127861287446036942016-02-06T09:19:29.404-07:002016-02-06T09:19:29.404-07:00Calling their dumb programs "clinical" l...Calling their dumb programs "clinical" lets them claim the prestige of the medical profession, which they emphatically do not deserve.<br /><br />Imagine the horror if medical schools admitted students on a par with the nincompoops that get into every toilet law school from the Univershitty of Texas on down. We'd end up with physicians who couldn't distinguish the islets of Langerhans from the rectum.Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-25274429019048018672016-02-06T09:07:59.341-07:002016-02-06T09:07:59.341-07:00Lots of law schools have professors with no JD or ...Lots of law schools have professors with no JD or other training in law. Indeed, hiring these privileged know-nothings to teach law has become fashionable.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-5503654721544942432016-02-05T20:18:17.670-07:002016-02-05T20:18:17.670-07:00Also, what's with the adoption of the word &qu...<i>Also, what's with the adoption of the word "clinical"? </i><br /><br />They use it because "prissy dorks dressing up and playing lawyer" sounds embarrassing and is much too wordy.Stonemason Esq.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-79750388213042152072016-02-05T14:00:30.900-07:002016-02-05T14:00:30.900-07:00They should have to be licensed in the state where...They should have to be licensed in the state where they teach. There is no excuse for state law schools not to have this basic requirement. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-80509747289229913482016-02-05T13:00:40.526-07:002016-02-05T13:00:40.526-07:00Guaranteed federal tax payments to private interes...Guaranteed federal tax payments to private interests, irrespective of performance, isn't capitalism. It's fascism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-37431772885808850712016-02-05T12:09:38.960-07:002016-02-05T12:09:38.960-07:00At least if you pay someone, you have motivation t...At least if you pay someone, you have motivation to get bang for the buck you're putting into them. When you have an unpaid intern, it's very easy to simply let them shuffle papers endlessly while you focus on the actual business. The experience then is of no value to the intern.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-29373785502764921202016-02-05T11:42:45.629-07:002016-02-05T11:42:45.629-07:00And they should be required to be GOOD jobs too. W...And they should be required to be GOOD jobs too. What a spectacle it would be to see these eggheads hitting today's job market with nothing on their resumé except a couple decades of scholarshit on the social justice implications of 18th century homoerotic Transylvanian poetry.Stonemason Esq.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-66025873094790452542016-02-05T08:58:28.332-07:002016-02-05T08:58:28.332-07:00Ripping off "buyer beware," using the ta...Ripping off "buyer beware," using the tax base for subsidies, sounds like free market capitalism to me, just like in the orginal Robber Baron days.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-41921155033874975292016-02-05T08:55:33.105-07:002016-02-05T08:55:33.105-07:00Same thing happened in pharmacy. It went from a pa...Same thing happened in pharmacy. It went from a paid year to an unpaid (and tuition added) year. Total hypocracy. The main concern a skuul has is to not upset the rotation/employer, selling out the student at the soonest notice, even if illegality was involved. I'm looking at you, a small Christian pharmacy school in Nashville.<br />I do like the term, "Employers are too busy..." That's true, which, along with the great boot licking my pharmacy school gave every employer for my free labor (to the exactness of said employer), I learned nothing, my rotations being an exercise in cover up and feigning knowledge. <br />Also, what's with the adoption of the word "clinical"? I mean, this isn't medicine here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-214134913779344412016-02-05T08:05:09.699-07:002016-02-05T08:05:09.699-07:00This.This.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01659995537790248686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-9728212987782862032016-02-05T03:33:21.617-07:002016-02-05T03:33:21.617-07:00But what would be the difference between paid inte...But what would be the difference between paid internships and paid clerkships? In reality, the only difference is that the student would receive credit toward the JD in an internship, which means a diminished role for the faculty. Accordingly, SALT should answer these two questions:<br /><br />1. Why would students have "distorted ideas of ethics" in a paid internship and not a paid clerkship, and<br /><br />2. Why do law schools actively seek firms who have available clerkships for their students since the same practioners would supervise the students in both clerkships and internships?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-75287334450291906682016-02-05T01:31:15.685-07:002016-02-05T01:31:15.685-07:00All true. If doing paid legal work in a law offic...All true. If doing paid legal work in a law office is so inconsistent with the objectives of legal education, then there is something terribly amiss with legal education. dybbuk123https://www.blogger.com/profile/08142974443119061724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-69632698073795807722016-02-05T00:13:11.140-07:002016-02-05T00:13:11.140-07:00I decided to have a look at my local phone book. I...I decided to have a look at my local phone book. In a Verizon phone book for the 703/571 area code I found<br /><br />* 220 phone numbers for 'Attorneys' and a helpful note to also check the 'Lawyers' section of the phone book<br />* 2 phone numbers for 'Law Citation Retrieval Services'<br />* 6 phone numbers for 'Lawyers Commercial'<br />* 5 phone numbers for 'Lawyers-Information and Referral Services'<br />* 8 phone numbers for 'Lawyers' Service Bureaus'<br />* 5 phone numbers for 'Legal Clinics'<br />* 1 phone number for 'Legal Forms'<br />* 20 phone numbers for 'Legal Service Plans'<br />* An nigh-uncountable number of phone numbers for 'Lawyers'. I had to take a ruler and measure and estimate to keep my sanity. I came up with approximately 1234 'Lawyers'. Also there was a helpful note to look at the 'Lawyers Guide'<br />The 'Lawyers Guide' was mostly Ads which I'll get to, but there were also 54 phone numbers in this section.<br />*** For phone numbers we come to a grand total of 1555 telephone numbers for lawyers and such.<br /><br />There are also the Ads for Lawyers. I counted<br />* 2 two page ads<br />* 4 full page ads (to be fair one of these was an almost full page ad, leaving just one column for numbers)<br />* 16 less than full page color ads<br />* 36 less than full page black, white and red ads<br />*** 58 ads of various sizes in total.<br />Granted not every ad was bought by a unique firm. Both two page ads were bought by the same firm, and one shop bought a quarter page color ad in 'Lawyers' plus a small black, white, and red ad for every practice area in the 'Lawyers Guide'<br />I also noticed some phone numbers would be bigger than others. I imagine that if you paid nothing your number would be printed in really small font and you can pay more for bigger font or for the inclusion of an email address or website. Some of the Lawyers with email addresses ending in aol.com probably didn't have a lot of extra money to be giving to the phone book people.<br /><br />All of this law busking takes up approximately 22 pages in the yellow pages of the phone book.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-51765948870996702042016-02-04T23:28:36.389-07:002016-02-04T23:28:36.389-07:00Let's compromise: get rid of 80% of the studen...Let's compromise: get rid of 80% of the students and 80% of the professors. That's fair, isn't it?<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-45814931761136717882016-02-04T23:25:34.806-07:002016-02-04T23:25:34.806-07:00Nice work, Dybbuk. Let me demolish these one by on...Nice work, Dybbuk. Let me demolish these one by one.<br /><br />* "Why are we now driving students, quite frankly, out of those public interest opportunities and into more paid positions? I think that’s wrong. I think that’s wrong. I think this is about education. It is not about making money."<br /><br />—— Oh, no? How much money does your jive ass make off "education"? How much public-interest work do you do? Where's the evidence that unpaid public-interest work fosters "education" more than paid jobs do? A lot of people in these "internships" spend their time running the photocopier or even sitting on their hands.<br /><br />* "I believe that the opportunity to receive pay would induce students to take paid positions in-house (for example, at Chanel or MTV) rather than enroll in credited positions in our nonprofit-based clinics (for example, the Consumer Rights Field Clinic)."˚<br /><br />—— You think that people would flee your shabby-ass "Consumer Rights Field Clinic" and possibly put its overpaid administrators out of a job. And you're crazy to think that big corporations are eager to bring in law students, especially people from a toilet such as yours. By the way, what is stopping your dumb clinic from paying the students for their work? <br /><br />* "Ultimately, the goals and objectives of paid employment and those of education are often in conflict. Among the goals of legal education are to instill the value of service to society and the obligation of lawyers to contribute. Paying law students to obtain their own education seems at odds with this principle."<br /><br />—— Instead, those students should pay tens of thousands a year to attend your toilet. Begrudge them the few pennies that they might make from a paid position; after all, only you should get any money. And how exactly do you fulfill your "obligation ... to contribute"? How the hell have you contributed to "service to society"?<br /><br />* "There is no way to overstate this issue: employers are busy and are not in the role of providing legal education. I have seen students come away from paid internships with distorted ideas of ethics and no sense for why they are have been taught to proceed a certain way in particular job tasks.. .. I think revoking this rule will end up with a larger percentage of unhappy new lawyers who leave the field due to lack of mentorship when they could have instead been directed to a legal field more in keeping with their particular gifts."<br /><br />—— Organizations allegedly acting in the public interest are also busy and are not in the role of providing legal education. Anecdotal evidence of students who get little out of a paid internship doesn't prove that paid internships are worse than unpaid. And most graduates—particularly from your toilet—won't have the luxury of choosing work "in keeping with their particular gifts" (if any); they'll be lucky to get any job at all.<br /><br />* "If some schools allow students to be paid, schools that refuse to do so will be at a disadvantage at a time of fierce competition for students. Students will more readily see the loss to their pocketbooks from being denied the option of payment than the loss to their educational experience from being paid." <br /><br />—— O woe! <i>Schools</i> will suffer! We must move heaven and earth to prevent that, even at the expense of students' financial well-being.<br /><br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-63501367228879385502016-02-04T21:49:12.214-07:002016-02-04T21:49:12.214-07:00Maybe the law profs should have to take an ethics ...Maybe the law profs should have to take an ethics class.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-49869083114326355962016-02-04T20:42:50.270-07:002016-02-04T20:42:50.270-07:00I agree with dupednontraditional's comments.
...I agree with dupednontraditional's comments. <br /><br />The Madoff scandal popularized the term "affinity fraud"-- which refers to scammers who target members of the same cultural group. I see law schools that trumpet their social justice orientation as enacting an ideological affinity fraud on idealistic students. <br /><br />However, outside the academy, one encounters lawyers who represent indigent clients, some as public sector employees. Few of these lawyers are rich, and their pleadings and briefs are notably free of critical theory slop. They are kept honest in their professional work because their arguments are countered by opposing counsel (audi alteram partem) and evaluated by a neutral and skeptical arbiter. Also because, unlike lawprofs, they are governed by rules of professional conduct. <br /><br />I hope that law school scam victims do not view lawprofs, with their posturing and pretentious pseudo-scholarship and their meager backgrounds in actual practice, as the true face of progressive lawyering.dybbuk123https://www.blogger.com/profile/08142974443119061724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62507058829385444252016-02-04T19:10:11.617-07:002016-02-04T19:10:11.617-07:00People with legal practice experience probably don...People with legal practice experience probably don't want to become law professors, so that's probably partially responsible for disconnect. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com