tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post5702797551449282260..comments2024-03-18T11:05:17.083-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Butthurt LawProfsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-71109592659075853832014-07-02T13:02:00.665-06:002014-07-02T13:02:00.665-06:00Here, here...it's all about the standard distr...Here, here...it's all about the standard distribution curve and differentiating the top 2 percent. It certainly was in medical school. All those wasted lives (5 percent attrition, an additional 5 percent failing to graduate on time), suicides, suffering, health decline, lost youth over a decade of self-study, for a bloody 2 percent differential, so dermatology and ortho go the biggest scum bags...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-76453433383576948182013-09-13T02:41:21.907-06:002013-09-13T02:41:21.907-06:00"They go on...meeting with students, just as ..."They go on...meeting with students, just as they did before."<br /><br />Or, perhaps, not keeping their office hours, just as they've been doing for years. Some professors are so arrogant, so pampered, so barricaded from their ordinary tuition-paying students, that it defies the imagination.<br /><br />Too bad so many top universities have big endowments. Even after the students quit signing their futures away, the tenured professors can continue their own scams for years by demanding pay from institutions without students. <br /><br />"By the way, where did the students go? Remember when we used to have students?"<br /><br />"Oh, them. Don't you remember, we got rid of them because they wanted jobs." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-20496272530962630182013-09-12T03:56:05.867-06:002013-09-12T03:56:05.867-06:00Anon 1:38 here.
Thanks for your comment. Yes, I u...Anon 1:38 here.<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. Yes, I understand that servicing debts means that there is a bigger nut to crack every month for the practioner. But I honestly don't believe that most solo practioners have the luxury of weighing a moderate fee against a siezable one. There is just simply insufficient work of any kind and the poor and middle class have access to all of the free and low cost internet and other resources I have mentioned. To the extent that these folks require help, they do not need leagl advice so much (as proclaimed by Mr. Long) as they just need a paralegal or notary to tell them which blanks need to be filled in and where documents should be filed. They don't need the Rule Against Perpetuities explained to them, they just need to know that if a holographic will would be valid in their state and if they are using a form, what they should put in which blank.<br /><br />But to the extent that servicing debt is a barrier to rendering legal assistance to poor and middle class people, the law schools have largely created this problem. Legal academics' plans to "solve" this problem is usually a just a mea non cupla claim and distraction as there is no attempt to fix the real issue, which is that law schools are graduating twice the number of lawyers required and the tuition is just too damn high. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47984309201327806492013-09-12T00:35:08.191-06:002013-09-12T00:35:08.191-06:00Professor, it's my sense as well that the aver...Professor, it's my sense as well that the average tenured law professor is too pampered and too dull to take heed of the secular economic changes that are taking place in the country, and in real legal practice. <br /><br />He, as a mere employee, cannot see what cause it is that is creating these effects: no COLAs, plummeting applications, plummeting admissions standards, 22% larger 1L class sizes, or even, anger amongst his students. <br /><br />Certainly, he would not put two and two together and realize that the demand-side erosion has everything to do with scam blogs, word-of-mouth, the constant national reporting on this horrendous bubble. <br /><br />He lives in blissful ignorance of that fact that if the public withdraws those public subsidies he's been gorging himself upon for decades - literally to the loss of all of the rest of society - he'd lose his shirt overnight. He knows not that fraud occurs every single day in a desperate attempt to keep those subsidies rolling in. He's too aloof to see the nascent consensus forming amongst the left, the traditional champions of public subsidies, that such should be withdrawn. <br /><br />Your argument has convinced me. The average tenured law professor is too stupid to realize what's here already, and what is coming next. Good riddance to the average, tenured law professor. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-27052334609133720112013-09-11T22:55:54.031-06:002013-09-11T22:55:54.031-06:00"I also suspect that a lot of those that do k..."I also suspect that a lot of those that do know their schools publish statistics have no idea what their placement statistics are."<br /><br />Law professors these days are like the Czarist nobility in St. Petersburg - endlessly gossiping over the latest scandal in the Imperial court, talking about the new ballet at the Mariinsky, and discussing Pushkin's literary work, while carefully not thinking at all about the suffering of all the serfs who make their elegant lifestyles possible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-66497782677210699892013-09-11T21:44:12.726-06:002013-09-11T21:44:12.726-06:00Dybbuk, I suspect that a large chunk of law profes...Dybbuk, I suspect that a large chunk of law professors don't know that their schools publish placement statistics. I also suspect that a lot of those that do know their schools publish statistics have no idea what their placement statistics are. Also, most of those who know that the statistics exist and have an idea of what they are have no idea whether they are accurate. Placement statistics are something that the Career Development Office and the Dean's Office would deal with, not the profs. To be clear, I'm not defending that; I'm just trying to describe the world view.<br /><br />OrinOrin Kerrhttp://volokh.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-34297385894193978162013-09-11T20:47:13.422-06:002013-09-11T20:47:13.422-06:00Prof. Kerr,
Do law professors spent time thinkin...Prof. Kerr, <br /><br />Do law professors spent time thinking about the highly misleading placement statistics that many, even most, law schools were publishing until very recently? Do law professors spare a thought or two about the impact those stats may have had on the lives of their students? <br /><br />dybbuk123https://www.blogger.com/profile/08142974443119061724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-30454166931373834432013-09-11T15:33:35.478-06:002013-09-11T15:33:35.478-06:00Here's a contrary view from the other side of ...Here's a contrary view from the other side of the fence. <br /><br />My sense is that most law professors haven't been impacted that much by the scam blog movement, actually. Most professors know that the job market is really tough and that applications are down. They know that budgets are tighter, that pay increases are lower (or non-existent), and that faculty hiring has slowed dramatically. And they may have heard about the scam blogs. <br /><br />With that said, most law professors don't spend a lot of time thinking about such things in their day-to-day lives. They go on teaching their classes, writing their articles, and meeting with students just as they did before. Plus, students at their home schools treat them the same way that they did before. There's a lot of anger in the scam blogs, obviously. But most professors don't read the scam blogs, and professors who don't criticize the scam blogs online generally aren't the specific targets of that anger.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents. (I also don't know any professors who "Just Don't Care," but that's a separate comment.) <br /><br />Orin Kerrhttp://volokh.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-43547242368409544582013-09-11T08:35:23.666-06:002013-09-11T08:35:23.666-06:00"Huh? What legal needs are going unmet?"..."Huh? What legal needs are going unmet?"<br /><br />The goal is a "civil Gideon", where if you sue anyone or are sued in a civil case, the taxpayers are required to provide you with a free lawyer (as they already are required to do if you are a criminal defendant).<br /><br />As for what legal needs are going unmet, a law school dean in New Jersey suggested that lawyers be provided to tenants in all eviction cases. Aside from the fact of what would happen to rents if you had to go through a lengthy legal process every time you wanted to evict someone, the dean ignores that in most eviction cases, tenants can't or won't pay rent, and are simply trying to stay in the apartment rent-free for as long as possible - it's not like they have a case against eviction.<br /><br />"Here's a question to ponder: As there is significant overcapacity in the market for legal services, why would there be unmet needs for legal advice?"<br /><br />The problem is the amount of law school debt people have now. It used to be you could make a living representing poor and middle-class people by charging them moderate fees - if you have $150,000 in debt to pay off, that is no longer possible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-882027262305578612013-09-11T02:38:22.515-06:002013-09-11T02:38:22.515-06:00"Despite the shrinking numbers of existing jo..."Despite the shrinking numbers of existing jobs in existing firms working for existing clients, there is no corresponding shrinkage among those who simply cannot afford the legal advice they need...." [Justin Long]<br /><br />Huh? What legal needs are going unmet? The opportunities for free or discounted legal advice has never been greater. Forms for wills, living wills, non-contested divorces and many other documents can be found online and purchased extremely cheaply or are free in many cases. For personal injury cases, attorneys will routinely take these matters on contingency and in criminal cases, the court will appoint a public defender to represent you. For other matters such as contested divorces, or people who have been scammed in some way, law schools are falling all over themselves to open more free legal clinics just so their students can become solo practice ready. <br /><br />Of course, law schools are the problem on both ends of this equation. Law Schools are pumping out twice the number of needed lawyers, most of whom have incredibly high debt. When those attorneys can't find a job and in a fit of desperation open a solo practice, they'll find that not only are they competing with discounted services on the internet but also with the law school clinic down the street which is offering free service. <br /><br />Here's a question to ponder: As there is significant overcapacity in the market for legal services, why would there be unmet needs for legal advice?<br /><br /><br /> <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-32891443050610548482013-09-10T19:56:15.780-06:002013-09-10T19:56:15.780-06:00It's fun to watch law schools scramble to re-d...It's fun to watch law schools scramble to re-define themselves in the midst of the shitstorm. The posturing is incredible: <br /><br />"We'll make students Practice Ready!"<br /><br />"We'll reform our cirriculum to make it more practical."<br /><br />And now law schools justify their role by arguing that lawyers are needed by "those who simply cannot afford the legal advice they need."<br /><br />What, pray tell, is this type of needed legal advice, and why is it needed? Why should others pay for it?<br /><br />Injured persons already can freely hire lawyers based on a contingency fee and free consultations with PI lawyers are commonplace. Apart from personal injury, ordinary people's legal needs stem from the fact they lack money. That's fine, but it ain't a sustainable market. And there are already hordes of out-of-work lawyers who could service this need. But no one can afford to work, maintain an office, and incur possible liability to boot, for free.<br /><br />How much longer will the public put up with the law schools slinging this utter shit? <br /><br />The issue should be a reach-back: Why shouldn't these clowns' paychecks for the past ten years be subject to recall? It's payback time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-69891845930604753782013-09-10T19:56:13.524-06:002013-09-10T19:56:13.524-06:00I ammglad my adjunct professor in college who was ...I ammglad my adjunct professor in college who was also a successful attorney, talked me out of attending law school. At first, I was like "what does this guy know, he is just trying to trample on my dreams". But, boy he was right, and I took his advice and stayed away from law school. I instead wasted my money on a grad degree, a so-called Masters of Taxatiom degree. <br /><br />I could not imagine paying $100,000 to sit in a class where a law professor teaches you the material in gobbly-gloop hide the ball non-sense.<br /><br />The business law undergrad class I took from the attorney was a wonderful class, I learned so much and he taught in a highly effective, direct manner.The Angry Accountantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-45292300632606251732013-09-10T19:23:26.801-06:002013-09-10T19:23:26.801-06:00Visiting Steve Diamonds website that's not too...Visiting Steve Diamonds website that's not too far off what he seems to believe.<br /><br />He also believes for the great majority of law graduates their JD is a wonderful investment. Law graduates are highly sought after in many fields, not just law, and most make a comfortable living.<br /><br />As per Simkovic and McIntyre's paper, legal education in itself makes people marvellously efficient and productive workers in any field they choose to work in. <br /><br />Sure law professors are well rewarded, but that's because all of them are making a great sacrifice working in education. Any of them could jump into far more lucrative and rewarding careers in biglaw any time they choose.<br /><br />Steve Diamond actually genuinely seems to believe this nonsense. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47586211742834276872013-09-10T19:14:31.486-06:002013-09-10T19:14:31.486-06:00"Perhaps the new support ought to come instea..."Perhaps the new support ought to come instead from foundations or philanthropists. Perhaps the bar itself, those lawyers who have found lucrative careers in our noble profession, should be cross-subsidizing service to the less-well-off to a much greater degree." --Law Prof. Justin Long.<br /><br />I am with Justin. Hey, law schools, next time some elderly rich philanthropist or Boomer-era alum who has found a lucrative career in our noble profession approaches you with a six or seven figure donation, be sure to mention Justin's advice. <br /><br />Yes, be sure to tell the prospective donor that the money would be put to much better use starting a fund to subsidize practicing lawyers who take cases on behalf of clients "who simply cannot afford the legal advice they need."<br /><br />dybbuk123https://www.blogger.com/profile/08142974443119061724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-64868268941476639102013-09-10T18:36:56.441-06:002013-09-10T18:36:56.441-06:00" Where is the debate about how to find funds..." Where is the debate about how to find funds so that lawyers can be hired to serve those clients, at salaries commensurate with their skill, education, and indebtedness?"<br /><br />The debate is as non-existent as the idea is nonsensical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-20202565551589238482013-09-10T16:54:54.887-06:002013-09-10T16:54:54.887-06:00Typical limousine liberal law prof answer: Make th...Typical limousine liberal law prof answer: Make the taxpayers pay for it but don't cut my bloated salary!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-67932238807562702482013-09-10T15:49:37.928-06:002013-09-10T15:49:37.928-06:00Don't worry, some law school professors are al...Don't worry, some law school professors are already thinking proactively!<br /><br />Justin Long at The Faculty Lounge:<br /><br />"But there is an entire side to the discussion that we simply aren't having: beyond reducing supply, we should be increasing demand. Despite the shrinking numbers of existing jobs in existing firms working for existing clients, there is no corresponding shrinkage among those who simply cannot afford the legal advice they need. Where is the debate about how to find funds so that lawyers can be hired to serve those clients, at salaries commensurate with their skill, education, and indebtedness?"<br /><br />It's not enough for the taxpayers to subsidize the production of lawyers, the taxpayers also have to subsidize the employment of lawyers, so the lawyers can pay back all those loans!<br /><br />(Professor Long is an untenured professor at Wayne State's law school, the 105th best law school in all the land. No wonder he's getting nervous. But hey, he went to Harvard undergrad, so he's better than you! Frankly, you're not subsidizing him enough, yet.)<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11060951953022348072013-09-10T15:05:55.366-06:002013-09-10T15:05:55.366-06:00I attended a TT law school in the 80s. With a few...I attended a TT law school in the 80s. With a few exceptions, virtually all the law professors were openly contemptuous to the vast majority of students. Some were openly insulting and went out of their way to humiliate students in class, but most were just assholes. They really are scum of the earth and relished being assholes while expecting the students to suck up to them. IMHO, they deserve to get kicked to the curb. I've never met a group of bigger assholes in my life, period.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-21221119585678161832013-09-10T13:57:32.204-06:002013-09-10T13:57:32.204-06:00Anon @9:11 here.
Thanks.
While legal scholarship...Anon @9:11 here.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />While legal scholarship has little credibility now, if and when the JD becomes a two-year degree, it will have less, if that's possible. In that case, students who have had only the first year of required courses will be serving as the principal editors of the law review and journals. For journals about a particular subject (sports law, environmental law, intellectual property, etc.), the editors will not have even had the basic survey course in the subject matter. <br /><br />Again, the whole system of legal scholarship is ridiculous and indefensible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-45242368615448940702013-09-10T13:29:43.098-06:002013-09-10T13:29:43.098-06:00The other reason:
If law professors actually taug...The other reason:<br /><br />If law professors actually taught the subject matter and tested it properly, it would be a lot harder to sort students into the various grades on the mandatory curve. It is much easier to provide no meaningful instruction or feedback, give a single open-ended vague final exam and reward the students who manage to intuit the exact answers the professor wants to read.<br /><br />Law school is basically a giant competition for grades with a six-figure entrance fee.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-63854089231087466902013-09-10T12:35:20.515-06:002013-09-10T12:35:20.515-06:00And the way they teach sinks below not caring, int...And the way they teach sinks below not caring, into outright bullying and deception.<br /><br />I speak of the famous "hide the ball" method of law school pedagogy, which is analogous to nothing I can think of in other fields of study. Instead of clarifying the material, like any conscientious teacher would, law professors waste your time with cold-calling, badgering strings of arid questions about "the facts" of the assigned appellate decisions in the casebook, patented little sarcastic jokes, and hypotheticals from fantasy-land meant to misdirect.<br /><br />They have their phony justifications-- teaching you to think like a lawyer, ect.-- which is comical in light of their often meager practice experience. The real reason is that they need to fill classroom time and have nothing to say. <br /><br />Suppose a law professor taught the actual doctrine and the judicially-created analytical framework, or tests, designed to apply those doctrines. Suppose he or she lectured about the context in which the tests came to be formulated, and even assigned a few cases to illustrate how courts have applied the tests. Suppose he or she even discussed significant splits in authority. It probably would not even fill half the semester-- and that is for the core first year subjects, not the second and third year fluff. <br /><br />One of the most exasperating experiences in law school actually comes just afterwards, when you take a nine-week $3000 bar review course. There it is, the actual content of law school, with the bullying and time-wasting and puffery and misdirection and mysticism and staggering expense and sacrifice subtracted. Nine weeks of material, and $3000.dybbuk123https://www.blogger.com/profile/08142974443119061724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11731215622402552152013-09-10T12:18:00.213-06:002013-09-10T12:18:00.213-06:00Yep. Not to shamelessly self-promote (as I consid...Yep. Not to shamelessly self-promote (as I consider myself on OTLSS now), but a few months ago being a university professor was the least stressful career of 2013, according to CareerCast.com.<br /><br />This was across all disciplines, so we know the LawProf gig is still sweeter, yet. But we kinda knew that already from experience.<br /><br />http://dupednontraditional.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-profs-protest-too-much.htmldupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-14400684254456194242013-09-10T12:02:59.190-06:002013-09-10T12:02:59.190-06:00Duped,
Anon 7:33 here. Apologies for not providin...Duped,<br /><br />Anon 7:33 here. Apologies for not providing a link to the post at your site.<br /><br />The other comments you selected are excellent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-81430650389006457482013-09-10T11:10:38.015-06:002013-09-10T11:10:38.015-06:00Its funny, but I remember having contempt for law ...Its funny, but I remember having contempt for law profs at my law school. I saw them as losers, incapable of practicing law and pretty much worthless at teaching law too. I learned little from my profs. There was maybe one good one in the bunch, a retired Judge. The rest of them were worthless. I learned the law on my own by reading the casebooks and the outlines available for purchase and then prepared for the Bar by paying for a third party company to teach me what I needed to know. I think the great majority of us pretty much do the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-61581630693157602662013-09-10T10:58:45.126-06:002013-09-10T10:58:45.126-06:00When it comes to making a living, there's alwa...When it comes to making a living, there's always the streets. The unemployed professoriate can take to the streets and become Fellatio Alger success stories.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com