tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post423540891257941784..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: The Toxic Jobs FactorUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-58166695047729462112016-10-16T19:31:59.367-06:002016-10-16T19:31:59.367-06:00That 50K is the golden ring. My Solo buddies and I...That 50K is the golden ring. My Solo buddies and I out almost 30 years would wet our pants for that sort of salary and benefits. For a dink bag PD job paying around 32K there were many applicants. It is brutal. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-19848363675680714462016-10-16T14:57:55.965-06:002016-10-16T14:57:55.965-06:00You can bet the lawyers working for the hypothetic...You can bet the lawyers working for the hypothetical firm and those like it earn at a similar rate to solos, or maybe $50,000 or $70,000 in a high cost area. They mostly practice in fields that they learned in big law. <br /><br />I have actually known people who are just like this -Yale Law, Columbia Law, University of Pennsylvania Law, Virginia Law, all with honors and marginally attached to a smaller law firm as described, or earning a very middling amount as a main partner in the smaller law firm. It goes up to firms with as many as 25 lawyers - alternate work arrangements with little income attached and of course no health insurance. <br /><br />Not your real full-time, permanent lawyer job, but no one is the wiser.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-32235348628826116992016-10-16T13:20:30.758-06:002016-10-16T13:20:30.758-06:00Just intended to make the point that even for lawy...Just intended to make the point that even for lawyers coming from big law or highly rated schools, there are a lot of law firms that are bad landing places. The employment outcomes, salaries and the like even in a firm that looks like it has a substantial number of lawyers are often terrible. <br /><br />This is in response to the person who asked aren't most middle aged lawyers doing okay. The answer is maybe not, if they are a placeholder on a website without full-time permanent work. You wouldn't know that they are not doing great from that law firm website.<br /><br />The $115,000 figure is for a hypothetical senior partner, who in reality does not make enough to pay his law degree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-49305740343395061792016-10-15T17:48:06.720-06:002016-10-15T17:48:06.720-06:00That salary average you cite is BLS data for EMPLO...That salary average you cite is BLS data for EMPLOYED pay check attorneys and does NOT include SOLOS or small firm lawyers which are 50% of the market. Most gub'mint lawyers earn no where near that 115K. The more accurate raw data is from the IRS which is about 37K. Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68925054324768223082016-10-15T11:19:36.484-06:002016-10-15T11:19:36.484-06:00Outside appearances - The law firm of Smith, Jones...Outside appearances - The law firm of Smith, Jones and Ray has a dozen lawyers and offices in a nice building. Mr. Jones lives in a nice house and drives a good car. The law firm has added one or two lawyers every year for the past 6 years. The law firm has a good website and prepares some interesting client alerts.<br /><br />What success!<br /><br />Reality- Nine of the 12 lawyers are independent contractor counsel or as needed associates. They like being on the website and the firm likes having them on the website because it makes them look "bigger" than they actually are. Most lawyers affiliated with the firm do not have regular offices at the firm because the practice does not pay enough to provide offices for all dozen lawyers. Most are place holders on the website. <br /><br />Mr, Jones earns $115,000 from the firm, the average lawyer salary in the U.S., but the cost of living in this city is 25% above the U.S. average. Mr. Jones' father-in-law passed away and left a nice inheritance to the Jones family, and they are spending it on their living expenses, until it runs out. Then they will sell the house and live off the proceeds of that and Mr. and Mrs. Jones' earnings.<br /><br />Watch out! Law is a lot like a video game. What you see is not necessarily the reality of the situation. Everyone wants to look successful, no matter what the reality is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91542922584798820922016-10-15T10:49:15.982-06:002016-10-15T10:49:15.982-06:00Problem is the huge supply/ demand imbalance - 1.8...Problem is the huge supply/ demand imbalance - 1.8 million law graduates vs 780,000 lawyer jobs in the U.S. There are about 1.3 million licensed lawyers for those 780,000 lawyer jobs. <br /><br />There are over 26,000 full-time permanent JD-required lawyer jobs for first year law graduates - not enough jobs for every law graduate that gets a first year job to continue working for a 40-year career.<br /><br />The numbers of jobs include solo practitioners. <br /><br />There are not enough jobs for all licensed lawyers to work as lawyers. There are not enough experienced jobs for all first year lawyers to work for a career.<br /><br />You cannot squeeze blood out of a stone. The work isn't there for all first year lawyers to have a career as successful experienced lawyers . The law of supply and demand is putting a lot of lawyers out of work, or out of full-time permanent work and into unemployment - years of unemployment - and underemployment - years of underemployment with no relief in sight.<br /><br />The ABA is committed to creating a huge and increasing oversupply of lawyers to create opportunities for bright young lawyers. Furthermore, the ABA says it violates the antitrust laws to prevent dozens of further new law schools from opening or to limit the supply of lawyers based on the demand for lawyers.<br /><br />So going to law school today is like playing Russian roulette with your career.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-64327728485062510792016-10-14T21:21:30.043-06:002016-10-14T21:21:30.043-06:00Remember that speech of Kellye Teste at some toile...Remember that speech of Kellye Teste at some toilet law school about nonJD law degrees and how great an investment law school is? It's been put under restriction on Youtube, you have to get permission of the owner to watch it now. <br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWR4JCm7IEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-74711768033179060122016-10-14T14:16:19.973-06:002016-10-14T14:16:19.973-06:00Quite a bit.Quite a bit.Law School Truth Centerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166092871374037640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-55520790438132598492016-10-14T12:49:36.774-06:002016-10-14T12:49:36.774-06:00Okay, all of these middle aged unemployed lawyers....Okay, all of these middle aged unemployed lawyers. . . where are they? What are they doing these days? I've said this before and I will again . . almost all lawyers in private practice eventually end up working for themselves or in smallis partnerships. By their middle ages, most successful lawyers have built up enough of a practice that they can make a reasonable living, or that is how it appears to me anyway. What am I missing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-3075022390894590392016-10-13T14:03:40.262-06:002016-10-13T14:03:40.262-06:00I hate to tell you man but I think the current sta...I hate to tell you man but I think the current state of the law has been coming for a long time and is only slightly due to the Great Recession. This profession has come to this by individuals (lawyers, judges, law school deans) looking out for number one. Generations looking to law school as a way to escape the military draft not to improve the practice of law. Years of courts and regulatory officials not using strict quality standards and enforcing rules and instead seeming to go after easier but stupider infractions against easy targets like financial mistakes. Years of lawyers pretending all was well and feeding the great propaganda machine for their financial betterment. They are retiring now with their massive pensions and 401ks and they will tell people until their dying day how great being a lawyer is. Meanwhile there are 10 lawyers for each job, the worst of the profession feels free to lie or cheat or steal and charge whatever they want, judgeships are sold to the highest bidder to political campaigns and every day... good lawyers will become unemployable and seek positions at Starbucks. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-58531407037739115132016-10-13T06:13:53.832-06:002016-10-13T06:13:53.832-06:00Dybbuk123,
Did you see this?
Vermont Law School,...Dybbuk123,<br /><br />Did you see this?<br /><br />Vermont Law School, a leader in graduate law and policy education, seeks a bold and dynamic new President and Dean who shares our commitment to academic excellence, innovation, and community. <br /><br />Please re-write the full add (it's hilarious), spelling out the "subliminal" messages in it.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-81660896285725900582016-10-11T11:32:37.439-06:002016-10-11T11:32:37.439-06:00As long as the American Bar Association is not mak...As long as the American Bar Association is not making a serious attempt to correlate law graduate production with the number of lawyer jobs, lawyers will suffer in the job market. <br /><br />A company can hire a T8 law graduate who worked in a V10 firm for years at a paralegal salary or for less than a teacher of that vintage earns in total compensation. It is quasi legal job, where they want a lawyer but know they do not have to pay for a lawyer because of the lawyer glut.<br /><br />Toxic up or out policies in law firms leave hordes of top lawyers unemployed and underemployed. When the lawyer is approaching age 50, that Harvard Law degree may as well be in basket weaving, because it can be and often is worthless - years of unemployment to work at all as a lawyer, and maybe no job at all as a lawyer after big law, notwithstanding hundreds of applications.<br /><br />Thank the American Bar Association. Leaving almost a million or so lawyers structurally unemployed is something they could not care less about. The ABA will keep opening new schools to provide "opportunities" to bright young lawyers, even if it leaves more than half of law graduates unable to work as lawyers and many of the rest temping or working in marginal positions, including up or out positions with not nearly enough follow on jobs.<br /><br />The lawyer jobs will continue to get more toxic -with lawyers treated like cattle headed to the slaughter. There is no reason to pay lawyers well or treat them well with the huge lawyer glut. There will always be an oversupply of lawyers, including many good lawyers, for any job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-73871956777630867092016-10-09T20:58:30.935-06:002016-10-09T20:58:30.935-06:00All of these problems look, feel, smell and taste ...All of these problems look, feel, smell and taste like issues found in lower level, dead end jobs, not in a profession dedicated to the Rule of Law and public trust. Shame. Why is that? Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-56593328362221554952016-10-09T13:21:46.255-06:002016-10-09T13:21:46.255-06:00I had two toxic law jobs and turned down a third. ...I had two toxic law jobs and turned down a third. This article is a little too on the nose, if that makes sense. Being told by a boss "Maybe we should file a....." meaning that you need to file it or else, but if it goes wrong you will be blamed because the boss just wanted to "consider it." Eventually, you get fired. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-44292147566448641032016-10-08T16:10:42.939-06:002016-10-08T16:10:42.939-06:00Maybe I need therapy here, but it seems like the g...Maybe I need therapy here, but it seems like the good, decent attorneys like me are unemployed or underemployed. We are the ones driving the '03 Accords through the courthouse parking lots with the squealing serpentine belts. The scamsters, shysters, hallway hustlers, ambulance chasers, fixers, pettifoggers have too much work, clients, fees and new Audis. There are tons of us "good guys" who entered the legal profession to have a nice career and were bushwacked by the Great Recession, government sequester and the unranked law schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-19767987554776517662016-10-08T14:40:02.464-06:002016-10-08T14:40:02.464-06:00I don't know about hordes and hordes, but inde...I don't know about hordes and hordes, but indeed many good lawyers are underemployed or unemployed. <br /><br />Good lawyers are greatly outnumbered by the hordes and hordes of lousy lawyers, who may or may not be employed.Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-18591397386971336472016-10-08T14:00:05.464-06:002016-10-08T14:00:05.464-06:00Unfortunately, there are hoards and hoards of brig...Unfortunately, there are hoards and hoards of bright, ambitious, skilled, experienced attorneys who are underemployed and unemployed, My buddy is a PI wiz and he is unemployed. We are all easily replaced and fungible. I don't have a "book" of business and the area of law I concentrated in is unique to the government. The government has decided I am expendable at the moment until there is either a public outcry or a "political" backlash or emergency for my area of the law. Good and specialized skills does not insulate one from this glutted attorney market.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-61059372373384655432016-10-07T20:47:38.957-06:002016-10-07T20:47:38.957-06:00Fill my place how? As a warm body? Maybe. As a gre...Fill my place how? As a warm body? Maybe. As a great lawyer? No way.<br /><br />Unfortunately, the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong.Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-29137193396930631392016-10-07T16:06:14.104-06:002016-10-07T16:06:14.104-06:00Take 10 well-trained dogs. Lock them in a barn and...Take 10 well-trained dogs. Lock them in a barn and every day give them enough food to fully satisfy 5 dogs. What do you think is going to happen?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-63474659970034950542016-10-07T13:48:59.142-06:002016-10-07T13:48:59.142-06:00I agree this is a really important post. The gener...I agree this is a really important post. The general public and students looking at law schools just don't seem to understand that not every legal job is a "good job," or even close.<br /><br />And of course it is absolutely the glut of lawyers that fosters more, and more toxic, legal workplaces. Loyalty--the calling card of an ethical lawyer--goes out the window when a brand new crop of "hungry" lawyers can be burned through at will. Likewise, the beatings will continue until morale improves, and what are you going to do about it, quit? The beatings are worse down the street, assuming they'll even take you in. <br /><br />Toxic environments make for toxic lawyers, something no society can let happen on a grand scale and expect the rule of law to survive.Mattnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-39508554819507171692016-10-07T10:38:31.466-06:002016-10-07T10:38:31.466-06:00@3:02:
Typical. It's "do as I say, not ...@3:02:<br /><br />Typical. It's "do as I say, not as I do" with these people.<br /><br />Hypocrisy - it's not a bug, it's a feature!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-54772359702762416162016-10-07T10:25:14.175-06:002016-10-07T10:25:14.175-06:00It's not the working conditions of the legal p...It's not the working conditions of the legal profession or the clients. I signed up for that when I entered the profession. The problem is for every attorney job, there are 10,000 schmucks in line who could fill your place. It is a cage fight for every job, client, fee, work---and law schools like Marshall, Valpo, Cooley, Indiana Tech keep pumping out lawyers with abandon. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57118510174766084382016-10-06T18:39:40.878-06:002016-10-06T18:39:40.878-06:00We had a public defender boss who wanted us at the...We had a public defender boss who wanted us at the office at exactly 8:00 am. Two hours before court and one hour prior to any POs, clerks---in other words we just sat around. We tried to explain that many of us stayed past 7:00 pm seeing clients etc and working with POs and Social Services. So, we just clocked out en masse at 4:30 pm every night. Form over substance. That boss was the "Greatest Generation."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-1200764491794807182016-10-06T18:32:42.428-06:002016-10-06T18:32:42.428-06:00All of the above is a part of every job in America...All of the above is a part of every job in America, law included. There are bad days and good. The only reason the profession sucks now is because of the huge glut of attorneys 1.8 million and growing. The problem is that there is no where for advancement or ability to switch jobs. Options are limited because there are 100s of applicants for every legal position. A buddy of mine attended a jobs networking event in an upscale suburb. Twenty people attended, 6 were attorneys. A public defender earning around 50K with pension, health care and paid vacation would be crazy for leaving to enter private practice. Those jobs are now reserved for the connected and T-1 graduates. You can't just "get a job" now. Solos and small firm lawyers are STUCK. To quote James Carville, "it's lack of work and jobs, stupid." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-37054497146522852582016-10-06T15:02:53.628-06:002016-10-06T15:02:53.628-06:00The boss at my old firm would sneak out at 5PM, bu...The boss at my old firm would sneak out at 5PM, but not before he got himself a warm cup of coffee and took off his jacket to put on his chair. He actually believed we didn't realize what he was doing.<br /><br />Even the cleaning people (who didn't speak English) would laugh at him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com