tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post3226258027196877503..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: WANTED - A Bigger BandwagonUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62566262339690452692014-12-10T06:02:27.717-07:002014-12-10T06:02:27.717-07:00Go to Seattle, you'll find plenty of bandwagon...Go to Seattle, you'll find plenty of bandwagoners there!FTIhttp://www.ftitechnology.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91098930233941264722014-07-30T13:06:47.456-06:002014-07-30T13:06:47.456-06:00If you want to get more people on the bandwagon, r...If you want to get more people on the bandwagon, remember to appeal to our natural allies against the scam. Those allies include college professors in subjects other than law. They could be at the forefront in protesting the law professors' excessive salaries, miniscule workloads, and inexplicable exemption from peer review. <br /><br />Even most philosophy professors could be enlisted to question the moral assumptions of the law school scam. Most law-and-philosophy articles are absolute trash, due to lack of self-awareness by the authors, lack of peer review, and the ridiculous multiplication of venues. Philosophy professors outside the scam can easily tell what's happening, and we need them to speak out against the laziness, entitlement, and inflated egos of the law professors. Not to mention, in certain cases, their boorish behavior, poor hygiene, and general contempt for social norms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91493700487331860422014-07-28T11:21:33.578-06:002014-07-28T11:21:33.578-06:00Hard to say which one is the worst; there are so m...Hard to say which one is the worst; there are so many strong contenders for that rank. Appalachian gives New England stiff competition, as does anything affiliated with Infilaw.<br /><br />Many stand-alone law schools are headed for the grave, but so are many that are part of a larger institution. For example, I can't believe that Indiana Tech will go on subsidizing its law skule for much longer.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-4805621311744310882014-07-28T10:54:41.114-06:002014-07-28T10:54:41.114-06:00Better link for JDJunkyard:
http://jdjunkyard.for...Better link for JDJunkyard:<br /><br />http://jdjunkyard.forumatic.com/viewforum.php?f=2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-51416396165440730452014-07-28T10:53:22.264-06:002014-07-28T10:53:22.264-06:00OT - a couple of links that may be of interest:
h...OT - a couple of links that may be of interest:<br /><br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/a-law-firm-cashes-in-on-the-management-of-data/2014/07/18/fcbce420-0c68-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html<br /><br />"Rosenthal said he recently got 400 applicants to fill 10 such spots." (document review)<br /><br />From 2004:<br /><br />https://web.archive.org/web/20100201042315/http://www.calicocat.com/2004/08/law-school-big-lie.html<br /><br />Note that some of the comments are similar to the ones Law School Lemmings receives.<br /><br />Found the Calico Cat link via JDJunkyard:<br /><br />http://jdjunkyard.forumatic.com/index.php?sid=651ab7ef329e69c7753c25744c7f3656<br /><br />which perhaps should be on this site's blog roll.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-1723587615737797522014-07-28T09:27:29.111-06:002014-07-28T09:27:29.111-06:00So your bet is still on the worst of the stand-alo...So your bet is still on the worst of the stand-alone law schools. Are we talking New England School of Law here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84728770469061883502014-07-28T07:53:58.148-06:002014-07-28T07:53:58.148-06:00Charles Cooper:
"Something has to close, eve...Charles Cooper:<br /><br />"Something has to close, even one school, in order to shock the system. I still think everyone is living in a dreamworld where they wish things were as they believe, but they haven't had someone pinch them and wake them up yet. So why not keep dreaming?"<br /><br />My bet is still on the worst of the stand-alone law schools. They'll have to offer massive tuition cuts and/or see class sizes drop like a rock, which means that they're looking at massive gross revenue cuts. And they don't have universities who might fund them out of status concerns. <br /><br />Once the bank turns off their credit, that's it.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-41562591416388656072014-07-28T06:13:06.144-06:002014-07-28T06:13:06.144-06:00Here's a really good question for any remainin...Here's a really good question for any remaining defenders of the law school scam: <br /><br />Why doesn't Peter Alexander describe himself as an ATTORNEY in Carbondale, Illinois? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-90955074708913690692014-07-28T06:07:09.549-06:002014-07-28T06:07:09.549-06:00A tenured sinecure at Indiana Tech doesn't mea...A tenured sinecure at Indiana Tech doesn't mean much. The institution as a whole is not on the line to keep tenured law professors living in luxury. Financial exigency, you know. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-18246327145537581212014-07-27T18:23:07.392-06:002014-07-27T18:23:07.392-06:00"Consultant" is often a way to put a pos..."Consultant" is often a way to put a positive spin on unemployment.<br /><br />I just can't believe that he resigned even a tenured post as professor for the sake of becoming a nondescript "consultant" supposedly pursuing other employment opportunities (according to Indiana Dreck's press release). He must have been given the axe. But why? Removing him as dean is one thing; forcing him out of his tenured sinecure is another. I suspect that something really ugly happened. Who can give us the inside scoop?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-61954485335963750952014-07-27T11:31:26.728-06:002014-07-27T11:31:26.728-06:00Looks like he got canned and went back to Carbonda...Looks like he got canned and went back to Carbondale with his tail between his legs. I wonder if he's consulting for the SIU law school, where he used to be dean. He never should have left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68277370061442607502014-07-27T09:35:22.255-06:002014-07-27T09:35:22.255-06:00Peter Alexander's page on LinkedIn mentions as...Peter Alexander's page on LinkedIn mentions as his last job that position at Indiana Tech. Currently he describes himself as a "Consultant" in Carbondale, Illinois. <br /><br />How likely is it that he would suddenly resign <i>sua sponte</i> as both dean and tenured professor only to become a "Consultant" elsewhere? Does anyone have trouble reading between the lines?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-36817797740184546542014-07-27T04:01:54.336-06:002014-07-27T04:01:54.336-06:00Does Indiana Tech still have an art collection? I ...Does Indiana Tech still have an art collection? I want to see it before the school closes forever. I figure I've got ten more months, unless the administrators sold the art to pay their own salaries. In that case, some former donors may have gotten a bit upset.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-66774937883349542512014-07-26T17:40:49.762-06:002014-07-26T17:40:49.762-06:00Something has to close, even one school, in order ...Something has to close, even one school, in order to shock the system. I still think everyone is living in a dreamworld where they wish things were as they believe, but they haven't had someone pinch them and wake them up yet. So why not keep dreaming?<br /><br />A school closure would be that pinch, and I think that's the next monumental moment in turning this mess around.<br /><br />Still working hard on ITLS, but it's keeping itself out of the press these days. I think it's learned that there is such a thing as bad publicity, and that hiding the truth still works as a recruitment tool.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10157020541840080308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-26868118613973843542014-07-26T13:14:49.278-06:002014-07-26T13:14:49.278-06:00If Perelman were willing to leave the Boston area,...If Perelman were willing to leave the Boston area, he could probably find a more prestigious job. Harvard is out of the question with those credentials. LLM from Columbia? Give me a break.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-2495706862502788972014-07-26T11:03:14.613-06:002014-07-26T11:03:14.613-06:00Let's see how this is supposed to work. Perlma...Let's see how this is supposed to work. Perlman will make you more employable by teaching you how to automate other lawyers out of their jobs? That's not a sustainable business model.<br /><br />The reality is that like most professors, Perlman has research interests that won't help his students find jobs. They shouldn't borrow money to take his classes, period.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22425745180600280282014-07-26T10:52:22.944-06:002014-07-26T10:52:22.944-06:00No, they must close. if there was a whiff of recov...No, they must close. if there was a whiff of recovery in the popular conciousness, new suckers would apply and schools would revamp enrollment. Most don't understand the huge pressure of the administrative class to bring in revenue. This is no longer the crusty professor taking an admin position before retirement, but a full time MBA boob squeezing money out of anything for his bonus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-37136991105472557252014-07-26T10:30:54.443-06:002014-07-26T10:30:54.443-06:00There actually is a doctor shortage, to explode in...There actually is a doctor shortage, to explode in a few years. As difficult as it is to believe, the AMA issued a self-serving study showing a surplus of docs back in 2000. The flawed methodology did not take into account the retirement of most of the workforce through boomer attrition. The AMA acutally cares about docs and wont sell it for a few academic larks. I believe the reason is the length and personal destructiveness of their training. Like Vietnam, it builds solidarity with practitioners (dentistry could also be included in this.) Any other profession has sold out and opened up X number of schools. <br />Additionally, don't be too critical of undergrad students. Their life experiences are high school and undergrad, where there is a modicrum of fairness and efforts of helping students because of their young age. The idea that schools are scams is a stretch for them. Youth naivete is a well cultivated enterprise in this country. We live in a very fluid, self-censoring society and it takes much life experience to cut through the B.S.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-85685117811622503562014-07-26T09:55:49.301-06:002014-07-26T09:55:49.301-06:00I had "Professor" Perlman at Suffolk Law...I had "Professor" Perlman at Suffolk Law School. One of the most pretentious, disconnected people I've ever met. A classmate described him as being mad that he was stuck in a sh!th0le like Suffolk when he should be professoring at Harvard.<br /><br />As is typical for law profs, he spent a few years in big-law then jumped at "academia" the first chance he saw. I'll give him credit, though. He actually new what meta data was in Word docs. Not sure why that makes him qualified to opine on law practice "technology and innovation", though. I'm sure he reads a lot of articles.<br /><br />/rantAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-50399946642178284722014-07-26T07:26:31.182-06:002014-07-26T07:26:31.182-06:00Yes, it would be great to see some law schools clo...Yes, it would be great to see some law schools close. That would be the most efficient way to reduce the number of law professors--and don't forget the administrators!--and reduce the overall waste of economic resources by a parasitic scam.<br /><br />However, my greatest concern is humanitarian: how can we reduce the number of young people reduced to misery by the scam? If overall enrollment declined another 30 to 40 percent, then the legal profession could catch its collective breath and regain some of its former dignity. The students, some of them quite bright, who chose to complete law school would have reasonable job prospects and the ability to repay their debts.<br /><br />Some top law schools have done their part to rehumanize the profession, reducing their enrollment by 10 to 20 percent. If all the inferior schools, including Brooklyn and American U, reduced enrollment by 50 to 60 percent, then the humanitarian crisis might be resolved. That's a result I'd accept and even celebrate, regardless of whether the worst schools are forced to close.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-9157150163023111942014-07-26T04:49:28.807-06:002014-07-26T04:49:28.807-06:00Good points all round.
It might be a question of ...Good points all round.<br /><br />It might be a question of hope: in the 1990s, since nobody was speaking up about the scam, I get the impression that there was a general belief from many that things would turn around one day, that legal hiring was cyclical and has its ups and downs (although more downs). But today, I sense that any kind of hope for a recovery has just about disappeared, and that this is the new normal.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10157020541840080308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-26406500316485591592014-07-25T23:28:27.232-06:002014-07-25T23:28:27.232-06:00I'd like to see some law schools close, since ...I'd like to see some law schools close, since that's the best way to reduce the number of law professors and the overall waste of economic resources. However, to reduce the number of students in misery, meaning debt slavery and marginal employment, all we need is to reduce overall enrollment. If that were to drop another 30 to 40 percent, the legal profession could take a deep collective breath and regain some of its former dignity.<br /><br />Some of the top schools have done their part and reduced enrollment by 10 to 20 percent. If the inferior schools reduce enrollment by an average of 50 to 60 percent, then I don't care if they close or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-79701530693831333362014-07-25T23:00:48.226-06:002014-07-25T23:00:48.226-06:00The sizes of this year's entering classes at t...The sizes of this year's entering classes at the various law skules will be known in the next couple of months. That information will be useful for predicting which schools will close and when. <br /><br />Already, however, we can see which law skules are in deep trouble. Several months ago it was reported that Vermont Law Skule was in negotiations with the U of Vermont over various options, including a take-over; and of course it is in financial trouble as well. Indiana Tech Law Skule filled barely a quarter of its seats last year and is now so desperate that it recently started sending out bulk mail with offers of discounts (up to full tuition) based on LSAT scores. I predict that Indiana Tech this year won't get more than 18 students in its entering class.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-23700342290545548382014-07-25T20:35:28.377-06:002014-07-25T20:35:28.377-06:00Speaking from the perspective of a 1995 law school...Speaking from the perspective of a 1995 law school graduate, I had a reaction similar to 6:16's. I don't really disagree with anything in the article, but I think it makes it sound like things were much better in the pre-2008 era than they actually were. This notion is bit of a pet peeve of mine, as it reinforces law schools' narrative that everything was just fine until 2008. It wasn't; the Great Recession took problems that had been developing for a long time and blew them up to a size where the law schools just couldn't hide them anymore. <br /><br />I can't speak for the time before I was in law school, but my impression is that the market got bumpy in the recession at the start of the '90s, bottomed out in '93, and remained sluggish through '96. After that, a strong economy and the rise of document review masked some of the problems, but the job situation never got anywhere near as good as the law schools' employment stats would have had you believe. (Maybe it was that good back in the '80s? I don't know.) Note that the earliest shots across of the prow of the scamblog movement, like The Calico Cat and the Barely Legal blog, came before the big economic downturn.<br /><br />The Great Recession did do a lot of damage to the legal market -- there's no doubt about that -- probably more in one fell swoop than all that had happened up to that point. But it isn't like law schools suddenly went from placing 100% of their grads in permanent full-time legal employment to placing only 50% (which is what the law schools would have you believe) . The number was probably around 80% in a good year in the late '90s or early '00s (in the depressed market of the early-to-mid '90s, there were years when it was probably in the 65-70% range). When it was 80%, the other 20% could be dismissed as losers who must have gotten bad grades or gone to bad schools. When it was 50%, and people with what had always been considered good academic pedigrees were struggling to find jobs, it became harder to brand the other 50% that way. <br /><br />11:50's point is well-taken, too. When I started law school, Biglaw paid only $65-75K or so. My understanding is that the tech boom of the late '90s drove up Biglaw salaries rapidly, causing them to peel away from the rest of the market and creating the bimodel distribution that we have today. Law grads with the credentials to get Biglaw -- never any more than 15-20% of law grads -- experienced rapid salary escalation, but this never really trickled down to the lower ranks of the professions, who saw little or nothing in the way of salary increases. The Biglaw salary increases in turn seemed to touch off some kind of employment statistics arm race, with law schools trying to outdo each other in finding creative ways to manipluate their salary stats so it would seem like all of their graduates were getting Biglaw money. Before the late '90s, when Biglaw salaries rose rapidly, you couldn't do that, because there wasn't as much of a gap between Biglaw and everybody else. When I applied to law school in 1991, my school was reporting an average salary of $35K -- I kid you not -- and this was at a non-T14 first tier school, usually ranked in the 20s in USN&WR. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-20142242226060205232014-07-25T20:14:40.877-06:002014-07-25T20:14:40.877-06:00You raise a valid point. Its the federal loan doll...You raise a valid point. Its the federal loan dollars that keep the schools open. Campos has said that he expects few if any schools to shut down - with the proviso that if the loan dollars stop flowing, all bets are off.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com