tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post2633155454462343711..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: JD Disadvantage, Part VIII - No Conference for You!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-48011767880446758822017-10-25T03:01:17.251-06:002017-10-25T03:01:17.251-06:00I've read in much of the world doctors and law...I've read in much of the world doctors and lawyers have to wait tables or drive cabs, because there is just no demand for them. <br /><br />The medical profession is still fine in the US for now, but law is quite obviously in the same spot it is around the world. <br /><br />The law schools failed to restrict entry into the field, and since that is the case, while it won't help anyone who is already a lawyer, the best thing to do is probably to at least just turn law into an undergrad major like in most countries. And maybe require some sort of apprenticeship and training to become a full attorney, similar to a CPA and a few other professions.<br /><br />Obviously law schools do not want this, but at some point the DOE really has to step in, especially when the ABA has claimed some flimsy, false Constitutional "access to legal education" nonsense to justify not doing its job. What better way to give more people access to legal education than to just teach it in undergrad? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-34798687520380709622017-10-25T02:55:44.571-06:002017-10-25T02:55:44.571-06:00I've applied for plenty of those types of jobs...I've applied for plenty of those types of jobs and gotten e-mails back "No JDs please". Even silence would be better than that affirmative rejection. Usually they change the ad after too.<br /><br />There was a time when the Federal Government did prefer JDs for a lot of positions. But Federal jobs have always been notoriously difficult to obtain, and they closed that option off shortly after the Great Recession.<br /><br />The most successful law graduate applicants just scrub their resumes free of law school. <br /><br />Oh and for many of these positions, they do practice age discrimination, they are looking for recent college graduates. Only 50+ year olds are actually legally protected, but very few people go to college at that age so it's not as much of an issue. Law grads however are typically going to be several years older than college grads, and while you might not want to think that is much, it takes most out of the running as well. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-53411748426864485052017-10-23T13:25:39.139-06:002017-10-23T13:25:39.139-06:00Oh, wow. Will someone review that novel for this s...Oh, wow. Will someone review that novel for this site? <br /><br />The review that 1:37 cites says that those three lemmings of Foggy Bottom (hilarious) dropped out and posed as lawyers down at the courthouse in order to wring money out of various scams of their own. Sounds like the tactic "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Except that their approach was illegal, whereas the law-school scamsters' enjoys full support not only from the law but also from the state, the ABA, the LSAC, and hackademia.<br /><br />The anti-scam movement is winning. Odious born-with-a-silver-spoon-up-my-ass scribblers such as Lisa McElroy have felt the need to allude to the movement in their shiterature (http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.ca/2015/10/who-wants-to-be-lousy-fiction-writer.html), and now a popular writer has based an entire novel on the plight of three unemployable students of an InfiLaw-style toilet. This movement has been in the mainstream for years.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-65423061057471588322017-10-22T15:16:23.531-06:002017-10-22T15:16:23.531-06:00Congrats!
DON'T LOOK BACK.
Scrub every bit o...Congrats!<br /><br />DON'T LOOK BACK.<br /><br />Scrub every bit of law school from both your resume and your life. Do what you can re: any debt you have. Do the best you can.<br /><br />You did the absolute right thing, no question. By this I mean: You got out of law as soon as you could.<br /><br />Like me, you blew 3 years of life and so on but that can't be helped now. Spilt milk and all that..<br /><br />All the best!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-46176770283618741532017-10-22T13:37:20.415-06:002017-10-22T13:37:20.415-06:00you guys see this? pure comedy.
http://www.lowell...you guys see this? pure comedy.<br /><br />http://www.lowellsun.com/ci_31394323/book-review<br /><br />Grisham's three characters -- Mark, Todd and Zola -- have eagerly entered the Foggy Bottom Law School with hopes of high-paying careers after graduation, dreams encouraged by the school's marketing material and loan officers.<br /><br />Alas, by their third year they have learned the hard truth: The law is an elitist profession, and it is practically impossible for the students to get any job upon graduation, let alone the mythical six-figure positions that go to graduates from top-tier law schools. Instead, students from little known, albeit expensive schools, find themselves saddled with hundreds of thousands of dollars of student debt, no prospects and little chance of ever repaying their loans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-65331865774706901122017-10-21T19:49:53.114-06:002017-10-21T19:49:53.114-06:00HIRED!HIRED!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-75833158166914992922017-10-18T15:19:00.553-06:002017-10-18T15:19:00.553-06:00And that's not even getting into the stress of...And that's not even getting into the stress of legal practice, and the lack of camaraderie. <br /><br />Most lawyers tend to be obnoxious and not pleasant to be around. But the vast majority do not start out that way. It's simply a symptom or result of a very difficult career, financially and simply in terms of day to day conditions. <br /><br />It's a lot easier to be a nice, good person when other people are nice and good too, and money/resources are no real issue. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-6000191136137239242017-10-17T08:44:39.385-06:002017-10-17T08:44:39.385-06:00The law school I went to posted some article about...The law school I went to posted some article about compliance jobs as being an option for law school graduates. Of course, they failed to mention how difficult it was to get one of said jobs.<br /><br />Also, the term "compliance" is pretty broad, and it can include all sorts of positions.<br /><br />Unless you're as @4:04 says, the only "compliance" jobs you'll be able to get pay between $35K to $50K--and you'll likely need some sort of other certification or experience. Maybe you can eventually move into a better paying position, but that will take both time and luck.<br /><br />Also, as noted, you'll be competing with many non-lawyers for these positions, and some of them have more specific experience that is valued by the employer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-72289136254730911512017-10-15T10:49:13.939-06:002017-10-15T10:49:13.939-06:00In New York City, a 20 year public school teacher ...In New York City, a 20 year public school teacher in the Tier IV pension plan earns over $200,000 a year in total compensation. That figures in the cost of pension, free medical for the family while working and free retiree medical for the worker and spouse for life. The $200,000 does not include an exemption from NY State and City taxation that the pension has under the NY State Constitution when that pension is paid. <br /><br />Lawyers of course don't get these benefits since they are not collectively bargained.<br /><br />Compare this to a 20+ year graduate of Columbia or NYU Law. A lot of these graduates are struggling in jobs with low incomes and no employee benefits. Earning $75,000 a year with no employee benefits would be a typical outcome for these lawyers. A few are partners, a few more at big in house, but many are earning in that five figure range with no employee benefits and less than $50,000 after taking out the cost of family medical benefits.<br /><br />It is night and day better to be a teacher in New York City than a lawyer. Even for Columbia and NYU grads, the teachers earn double what most Columbia and NYU lawyers earn 20+years out.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-55942428845404015402017-10-14T12:30:52.436-06:002017-10-14T12:30:52.436-06:00It went pretty well. I didn't get an offer but...It went pretty well. I didn't get an offer but I did get an appointment for a urinalysis test. I'm not sure how much the companies pay for those... would companies pay for drug tests of people they already decided not to hire? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-88736954302226850702017-10-13T16:04:15.306-06:002017-10-13T16:04:15.306-06:00The people you know in these jobs likely got legal...The people you know in these jobs likely got legal jobs in the business first and then switched to non-legal jobs within the same business. The problem with that is that you need the legal job first with the same employer to get something else. <br /><br />With the problem of there not being enough legal jobs long term for those leaving big law, mid law or respected boutiques or for lawyers whose in house jobs have simply ended, lawyers are going to have a tough time transitioning to something else unless they effectively hit the in house job jackpot.<br /><br />A lot of us are dealing with fewer and fewer open law jobs as we get more experienced and no employment opportunities anywhere. That is after years of big law and big in house. Other employment is not happening for many experienced lawyers who need work. <br /><br />The JD preferred market is there but it is very, very limited. Only a very small share of experienced lawyers who actually practiced law first will be able to access that market. It is not the answer to the severe longitudinal oversupply of lawyers who start with good jobs after law school and cannot find anything when their job simply disappears after time, which happens to probably most lawyers before they reach retirement. <br /><br />Sometimes experienced lawyers have counsel positions at law firms where they are actually only marginally working, only very part-time or intermittently. Those lawyers typically cannot get real jobs. It looks like they are working from the internet. In fact they are earning what an entry level BA earns at best. Sometime their work is from home with no office available. No escape from that without the non-legal jobs being available to lawyers in sufficient numbers. The non-legal jobs are not happening for most lawyers because their work experience is not a match for the non-legal job and the non-legal market has its own applicants with great experience who beat out the former big law lawyers for that non-legal job almost every time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-66289288738045741852017-10-13T15:38:05.370-06:002017-10-13T15:38:05.370-06:00Not true. My colleagues and I have a specialty. ...Not true. My colleagues and I have a specialty. Problem is that the legal jobs in that specialty are stagnant at best and probably declining. There are lots of non-law jobs that a lawyer with out expertise could do given the opportunity. Problem is that lawyers generally are stuck with law jobs.<br /><br />In our area, the number of jobs declines as one gets more experienced. If there are not related non-law jobs for us, we will end up unemployed years before retirement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-12956555374377986002017-10-13T11:05:55.743-06:002017-10-13T11:05:55.743-06:00Every type of job that is marginally related to la...Every type of job that is marginally related to law is severely oversubscribed because hordes of desperate unemployed and underemployed lawyers are applying to these jobs. <br /><br />At the other end, every non-law organization where a lawyer who actually has a private practice job could go to get clients is terribly oversubscribed as well. <br /><br />The extreme lawyer glut has produced career unemployed and severely underemployed lawyers, many, many from elite schools. The degrees from these elite law schools are worthless for most older women and minorities who actually need to find a job. <br /><br />Most lawyers in urban areas with high costs of living would be much better off as a 20+ year public school teacher than as a 20+ year lawyer with an elite law degree because of the extreme supply/demand imbalance in the legal job market where the market simply disappears for older lawyers. They cannot stay in their jobs and they cannot get new jobs because of the way the legal job market is structured.<br /><br />It is crazy. One would think by going to an Ivy League undergraduate and a top 8 or top 14 law school that it would be possible to work on full-time, permanent basis in law or a marginally profitable related job. That is simply not the case for more experienced lawyers. Lawyers can spend 400 hours a year on a job search with top credentials and not not get anything because they have too much experience. The market is for lawyers with only a few years of experience with very few jobs for more experienced lawyers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-88459222653447399792017-10-13T09:45:29.431-06:002017-10-13T09:45:29.431-06:00Good luck! Let us know how it goes!!! Good luck! Let us know how it goes!!! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-23693632621631386752017-10-13T09:31:14.661-06:002017-10-13T09:31:14.661-06:00Big law lawyers are unemployed because they learne...Big law lawyers are unemployed because they learned nothing on their job that translates into knowing anything about practicing law. I've said this before and will again. Millions of lawyers work in small businesses throughout the land doing stuff like criminal defense, wills, trusts, personal injury litigation, etc. That is the basis of most legal jobs and careers out there. If you come out of Big Law, what the heck do you know? What is required to be included in a Mutual Fund Offering? It always comes down to whether you have useful skills. Big lawyers don't. Don't judge us by them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-52307777271816621332017-10-13T09:20:53.895-06:002017-10-13T09:20:53.895-06:00Yes, the second lemming was very lucky. I do not k...Yes, the second lemming was very lucky. I do not know how he got a job back at the refinery after over 10 years out of engineering. I had interviews for oil and gas jobs after graduating law school and failing to get a lawyer job, but did not get hired, partly because they thought I would leave as soon as I got a lawyer job. They actually told me that.<br /><br />Oil and gas jobs pay better than most lawyer jobs. You should see the amount of bottom feeding lawyers around my area. I bet most of them are lucky if they pull in over $50K/year. yet nothing we do dissuades the lemmings. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22270329577289377872017-10-12T15:46:53.166-06:002017-10-12T15:46:53.166-06:00I know many JDs in legal compliance, trade complia...I know many JDs in legal compliance, trade compliance, and personal data security roles within large corporations.<br /><br />I also know many JDs in corporate procurement or other business-related roles.<br /><br />Not one of the above obtained their position as a newgrad. They migrated into those jobs after successfully working as lawyers first.<br /><br />Yeah, I know it's anecdote and all that, but too often I hear "compliance" touted as a JD-Preferred job without the touter giving due consideration to just how many of those are available without real working legal experience as a prerequisite. ITOTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-13295530494064210032017-10-12T15:43:53.619-06:002017-10-12T15:43:53.619-06:00The whole notion that the amount of JD-advantage j...The whole notion that the amount of JD-advantage jobs has doubled since 2005 strikes me as a horse/cart problem.<br /><br />It's more likely to me that the reason more people are counted in those jobs is simply the result of fewer newgrads being able to obtain actual law jobs.<br /><br />So they turn to other jobs and if there's a smidgen of "the law" aspect about it, their loving alma mater shoves it into the "JD preferred" bucket, using whatever amount of spit and axle grease may be required to force that square peg into the round hole.ITOTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-12261233561085700482017-10-11T21:38:16.246-06:002017-10-11T21:38:16.246-06:00I have scrubbed law school from my resume.
I have...I have scrubbed law school from my resume. <br />I have an interview on Friday. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-55609524250160337122017-10-11T19:34:49.719-06:002017-10-11T19:34:49.719-06:00The real problem is the lack of JD preferred jobs ...The real problem is the lack of JD preferred jobs for lawyers. There are only about 620,000 lawyer jobs taking out solos and 1.3 million lawyers. Another 150,000 solo jobs that mostly pay like a BA or less, but are shared among at least twice as many lawyers. If good JD preferred jobs that paid decently were readily available, these statistics would not be so horrible. <br /><br />JD preferred jobs are not plentiful unless you call jobs like probation officer, title insurance sales, mortgage loan officer, and every other job that has an extremely marginal relation to law and does not warrant an expensive JD a JD preferred job. Those jobs are only available to those who are relatively newly graduated from law school, to the extent a JD can get that type of job. Many JDs who have those jobs may have done them before law school - experience is key to getting any job.<br /><br />It is a pretty depressing scene. More and more lawyers losing jobs. Big contingent of women in their 50s formerly at big law losing jobs like deer in headlights. They cannot get anything. No JD preferred, no jobs at all. Maybe they can work in retail if they really need the money. Their experience just does not match the market. This happens to men too, but they are older when it happens and they find it easier to get short term jobs in law than the women.<br /><br />The up or out and class year hiring has now started to put a huge contingent of lawyers out of work by the time they reach their early to mid fifties, with no opportunity to work after that. The goal of the profession here is to give opportunities to younger lawyers at the expense of more experienced lawyers. An experienced lawyer cannot even touch JD preferred because they don't have the proper experience.<br /><br />Many colleagues formerly in big law are completely unemployed in this booming economy and have spent more than a year unsuccessfully looking for work. They will take law or any job related to their experience, but no one is hiring JDs over the age of 50. <br /><br />Law today is a very poor career. The ABA needs to wake up to the fact that it is putting lawyers, hundreds of thousands of lawyers, out of work with its fake "antitrust" policy. Antitrust laws never mandated accrediting bodies to keep opening hundreds of schools to train hundreds of thousands of Americans for certain unemployment and underemployment in their field of study.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47670552465210708322017-10-10T14:26:23.735-06:002017-10-10T14:26:23.735-06:00A bit off-topic, strictly speaking, but interestin...A bit off-topic, strictly speaking, but interesting nonetheless.<br /><br /><br /><br />By a MetNews Staff Writer <br /><br />The bleak job prospects for new attorneys was reflected in an opinion Friday by the Fourth District Court of Appeal which holds that a new admittee’s status as a lawyer did not substantially increase his earning capacity so as to render his wife entitled, in a dissolution action, to reimbursement for community contributions to his legal education.<br /><br />At issue was whether Family Code §2641(b)(1) applied. It provides:<br /><br />“The community shall be reimbursed for community contributions to education or training of a party that substantially enhances the earning capacity of the party.”<br /><br />San Diego Superior Court Judge Gerald C. Jessop said that to order reimbursement, “[t]here must be evidence that the education substantially or demonstratively enhances earnings,” and observed:<br /><br />“That evidence is missing. It’s speculative at best. Consequently, the Court is denying that request.”<br /><br />The ruling came in the action for the dissolution of the marriage of William D. Powell, admitted to practice on Feb. 28, 2014, and Cara Powell. The community financed William Powell’s education at an unaccredited law school while he was working full time as a home theater installer.<br /><br />‘Ticket to Prosperity’<br /><br />Div. One of the appeals court affirmed in an opinion by Justice Cynthia Aaron, who quoted a 2008 Court of Appeal opinion as saying:<br /><br />“A law degree is not a ticket to prosperity.”<br /><br />She wrote:<br /><br />“In this case, as William aptly points out, Cara argued that William’s legal education substantially enhanced his earning capacity because he became capable of practicing law as an attorney and that the only reason that William had gone to law school was to increase his earning capacity, but presented little or no evidence to demonstrate that his legal education in fact substantially enhanced his earning capacity. For example, Cara presented no expert witnesses to testify regarding the income that William was reasonably capable of earning based on his personal attributes and the employment market….”<br /><br />‘Highly Speculative’<br /><br />Aaron continued:<br /><br />“On this record, it is highly speculative whether William’s legal education substantially enhanced his earning capacity. William possessed marketable skills as a full-time electrician installing home theaters, and he had been steadily employed in that capacity for at least seven years. There was no evidence in the record that he had a reasonable prospect of being hired or earning more as a full-time attorney. In fact, the evidence showed that William had received no offers of full time employment as an attorney. His income increased somewhat after he graduated law school because of tutoring jobs and occasional legal work. However, William also incurred many expenses in connection with trying to build a legal practice….We discern no abuse of discretion by the court, which cited the correct legal standard and relevant case law, in its finding that there was insufficient evidence that William’s legal education substantially increased his earning capacity.”<br /><br />The case is Marriage of Powell, D071322.Lois Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04940132718084602679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-88128302783858364992017-10-08T16:44:06.487-06:002017-10-08T16:44:06.487-06:00There is no job that is not explicitly legal in na...There is no job that is not explicitly legal in nature, where a JD will be chosen over an MBA.... <br /><br />... and, I sent an email to the career services person at my old law school - I contacted them for some advice even though I graduated 8 years ago - and got an automated so-and-so "will be out of the office" reply message. This conference was this last friday, I bet that's where she went. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-53120846983340183502017-10-07T15:04:04.796-06:002017-10-07T15:04:04.796-06:0010:40 AM, how many shady architect jokes do you kn...10:40 AM, how many shady architect jokes do you know?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-43414466873507591952017-10-07T14:19:51.260-06:002017-10-07T14:19:51.260-06:00In med school I heard a professor lament that a sm...In med school I heard a professor lament that a small fraction of grads skip residency and go to silicon valley to join health care related start-ups. The prof was upset because there is a shortage of primary care physicians, and these grads are taking medical school slots that could have gone to applicants that wanted to actually practice medicine. That is the only kind of alternative career path I have heard of that could be called an "MD advantage." But these were not unemployed MDs. These were grads who didn't want to go through the grind of residency and were seeking out riches in silicon valley.<br /><br />The professor's gripes helped me to realize we are hearing a lot of double speak from the law school scam artists. (BTW, unlike law school where professors have a few years of practice experience and never practice again because reasons, this professor was a practicing physician and lecturer. Strange how MDs can balance teaching and working when that is too burdensome for law profs.) On the one hand, law schools claim we have a critical shortage of attorneys. They say, courthouses are filled with pro se litigants in divorce proceedings, landlord tenant disputes, contract disputes. Even rural areas have a shortage of lawyers! So we need to churn out more law grads. If all of that is true, then the pig deans and law profs should be upset every time a law grad works in human resources, corporate compliance, or at the local Meijer. But the law profs and scam deans are not upset at all. They tell unemployed grads that the JD is versatile and that they should pursue one of these supposed alternative careers. They want to use the “JD advantage” category to bolster their employment stats. Essentially, they will do and say anything to get lemmings to enroll.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84001838978375591352017-10-07T01:35:13.093-06:002017-10-07T01:35:13.093-06:00CEOs tend to get their jobs for reasons other than...CEOs tend to get their jobs for reasons other than ability, such as pedigree or connections. That could explain the large number of sociopaths in the executive suites.<br /><br />Surgeons, though at least extensively trained and capable, tend to come from privileged backgrounds. That could explain a thing or two.<br /><br />Lawyers too used to come from the aristocracy, and many still do, particularly those that attended élite schools. Nowadays, however, the ranks of lawyers are filling with dipshits who never should have pursued the legal profession. Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.com