tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post2625112855418595860..comments2024-03-28T07:16:35.912-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Paying Off Law School Debt and Changing Perceptions About the Legal ProfessionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-2775064056900587352013-09-25T21:12:52.536-06:002013-09-25T21:12:52.536-06:00Entrenched stereotypes die hard:
A Frenchman is a...Entrenched stereotypes die hard:<br /><br />A Frenchman is an efette man wearing a red beret, painting on an easel, perpetually saying, "We, we..." An Asian student excels at math, plays excellent piano and is the valedictorian... and so on, and so on. <br /><br />Up until now, the lawyer 'prestige' stereotype has been benign. Like having an Aussie saying, "Put another shrimp on the barbie" and an Englishman wearing a monacle, top hat, and talking nonstop about the royal family. It's sort of like a mascot or cartoon identity character... <br /><br />Parents and family love it, and the student gets swept along, even though they all probably know, deep down inside, that the image is a tad bit exaggerated. The identity thing is still cool.<br /><br />For years, noe one was harmed by the positive stereotype of the prestigious lawyer. The mass overproduction of lawyers and the permanent downturn in the legal economy has changed that.<br /><br />As we've learned as a society, seemingly harmless stereotypes must be dismantled when people are harmed or groups are unfairly treated. Our sensitivty has increased. Today, most thinking people don't repeat such filthy garbage as 'Black people like watermelon' or make fun of Asians for the shape of their eyes. Once upon a time, such trash was thought relatively harmless (by the majority group). <br /><br />Scamblogging is beginning to change the conversation about law school. The dire, untenable situation in which law grads will now find themselves isn't the least funny, or anything to be proud of. The seemingly innocent stereotype of the lawyer as financially successful and prestigious leads unwitting students into the law school trap.<br /><br />Let the conversation and enlightenment continue. This poor young man and/or family paid a whole lot of money for a mere title, quite possibly based on being subconsciously conditioned by a stereotype.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-6394797488644921542013-09-25T19:08:13.507-06:002013-09-25T19:08:13.507-06:00After they hear all the lawyer jokes and seeing th...After they hear all the lawyer jokes and seeing the advertisements on buses and subway stations, I am a bit curious as to why people think that being a lawyer is prestigious. It seems that there is a bit of a dichotomy there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-13946125240553691952013-09-25T15:28:41.103-06:002013-09-25T15:28:41.103-06:00Right on. The JD is something to be hidden if you...Right on. The JD is something to be hidden if you wish to prosper today. And if you got one, get over it. It's like any STD... get treated.<br /><br />The senseless tide of nincompoops heading to law school nowadays is simply buying into credentialing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-15520073150355430602013-09-25T15:13:39.774-06:002013-09-25T15:13:39.774-06:00Sad to say, he went to get a JD because of the &qu...Sad to say, he went to get a JD because of the "prestige," because that's what smart kids do. I think he knows better now. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-59565565850487337252013-09-25T14:06:02.793-06:002013-09-25T14:06:02.793-06:00"Luckily, Post is a child prodigy, so he will..."Luckily, Post is a child prodigy, so he will only be 30 when he is free of the shackles of debt slavery."<br /><br />Exactly. <br /><br />One should ask him why he bothered going to law school at all, it certainly wasn't because he couldn't be employed as a prodigy. Being debt free at 30 is the new rich in the new normal. Losernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47496434478881012862013-09-25T12:33:11.489-06:002013-09-25T12:33:11.489-06:00The value in STEM degree is not that you work for ...The value in STEM degree is not that you work for someone. It's that you can generate revenues by building something people will pay for. The JD is useless in any industry because you're generally not creating a revenue stream. You kinda figure out what your "worth" is in software when stuff you build generates revenue. I no longer even claim I'm a lawyer -- most meetings I go to, people in the room will have done their due diligence and know that, at some point, I was a lawyer (and they'll say, "we didn't know you were also a lawyer"). Mostly, I'm known as "they guy who built that thing that was awesome"...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-19685892881543556202013-09-25T11:53:47.578-06:002013-09-25T11:53:47.578-06:00That was his/her sarcastic point.That was his/her sarcastic point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-25231891086441829082013-09-25T09:40:28.593-06:002013-09-25T09:40:28.593-06:00Anonymous: "Just don't ignore the econom...Anonymous: "Just don't ignore the economic benefits to society of having a few thousand hard-working professors returning to top firms when there's a serious shortage of practice-ready attorneys. :)"<br /><br />'Practice-ready'? People who never got legal jobs are not practice-ready. Document reviewers are not practice-ready. People who haven't worked in law for several years are not practice-ready.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-9108443875598148472013-09-25T06:46:42.324-06:002013-09-25T06:46:42.324-06:00Sorry, I didn't mean (at 9:33) to demean Post,...Sorry, I didn't mean (at 9:33) to demean Post, who seems to be a nice guy and a good son, works hard, and was victimized in part by propaganda from the scam.<br /><br />He does have a good job, right now, one for which he deserves great respect. I just wanted to suggest that he might have a good *JD-required* job today if it weren't for the promiscuous overproduction of JD graduates by TT/TTT institutions in his neighborhood. I meant no more than that.<br /><br />Carry on, Andrew. Scams come and go, and very soon I hope, but character never dies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-80578321154323095952013-09-25T05:47:54.794-06:002013-09-25T05:47:54.794-06:00I miss Campos--meaning his own posts at ITS--quite...I miss Campos--meaning his own posts at ITS--quite a bit. No one does it better. With due respect to the dedicated writers and reporters at this site, they aren't as good as Campos.<br /><br />He does comment here sometimes, and in another forum for prospective students sometimes. He did another fantastic takedown of the Indiana Tech scamdean, right here, about a month ago.<br /><br />Indiana Tech, of course, is an unending source of comedy, and Campos has been great on that story--right on point, right from the start. His other comments have tended to be more modest, often just encouraging some poor schmuck to think harder about getting a JD. He's quite incisive on the basic issues of cost and debt versus benefit (if any, since the benefit of a JD can be negative even if tuition is free.)<br /><br />I've got to say that even if Campos never comes here again, he's done enough. He started something great that we have to take in new directions. The dedication of the contributors here is amazing, and whoever it was that decided to denounce us and quit won't be missed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-82723955244116605802013-09-24T21:14:03.279-06:002013-09-24T21:14:03.279-06:00You realize indentured servitude is voluntary serv...You realize indentured servitude is voluntary servitude, right? If it's not voluntary, it's slavery.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-89985927145715315582013-09-24T18:49:26.180-06:002013-09-24T18:49:26.180-06:00Seven months or so and pushing 400K views.
This ...Seven months or so and pushing 400K views. <br /><br />This blog is hot stuff.<br /><br />What bothers me is the Campos sudden exit and the lack of overt support by Campos here.<br /><br />Not that it matters. <br /><br />Really, and carry on and wrote a book or two or three while you are at it. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-55938905931226486652013-09-24T17:37:32.980-06:002013-09-24T17:37:32.980-06:006 years is way too optimistic.
this guy has sever...6 years is way too optimistic.<br /><br />this guy has several advantages:<br />- graduated LS at 22, whereas the median JD graduated probably at 26/27. he has a longer payback period from 22 to the arbitrary age 30<br />- two prong advantage: rent-free in a high-salaried job market<br />- engineering parents <br />- engineering background. if he wanted, he could go for FA or PE<br /><br />other worthy mentions<br />- how many years did he shave off his life from the stress and apparent lack of exercise in accomplishing all that before 22<br />- how much did his parents invest for him to accomplish what he did (tutoring, maid service, etc)<br /><br />a more reasonable number would be age 35. there's no sense in killing himself to debt servitude. with all that being said, he has a light at the end of the tunnel whereas most JDs don'tAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-86081241962097773702013-09-24T16:15:08.222-06:002013-09-24T16:15:08.222-06:00Boomer Ipsa Loquitur. No one but a boomer could b...Boomer Ipsa Loquitur. No one but a boomer could be so gleeful and callous at the same time towards the difficulties of others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-77804881840223896792013-09-24T14:04:25.945-06:002013-09-24T14:04:25.945-06:00Check out the swords on his wall. I wonder if he ...Check out the swords on his wall. I wonder if he gets his programming gigs by going from software company to software company and asking for permission to kill himself in their courtyards. In feudal Japan, this was called "networking."Hunter Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10925220178171355473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11365046821065424632013-09-24T13:35:02.458-06:002013-09-24T13:35:02.458-06:00Its not "indentured" servitude, its volu...Its not "indentured" servitude, its voluntary servitude. The debt was voluntarily assumed, and if you are paying it back, that too is voluntary, albeit there are serious penalties for not doing so. Maybe everybody should just get together and burn up their Loan coupons and documents . . millions of students, all on the same day at the same time. Kind of like burning the draft cards of the boomers many of you despise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68671746365553165902013-09-24T13:20:27.925-06:002013-09-24T13:20:27.925-06:00Jesus. I started thinking about this more. At ap...Jesus. I started thinking about this more. At approximately $90k, assuming taxes, 401k, health care, etc., his $2,756 monthly payment is more-or-less HALF his take-home pay.<br /><br />So if he throws everything at it, he is debt-free in six years...? Six years of work making approximately nothing? <br /><br />How can most people do this? Most cannot live rent/food/utilties free for six years. And people say there is no indentured servitude.<br /><br />dupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-30183130502117546072013-09-24T10:53:56.182-06:002013-09-24T10:53:56.182-06:00I knew a couple of child prodigies who went to law...I knew a couple of child prodigies who went to law school back when it was reasonably priced in the 1980s. Both did o.k. but neither really set the world on fire. Law is a people business and being a prodigy might be a disadvantage because many such people, including the ones I knew, probably lag behind most folks in their people skills because they did not experience socialization with their peers the way the majority of people do.<br /><br />Prodigies are useful as examples of the mindset that too many people have when they go to law school: Credentialing. The mindset that if I get this piece of paper I am somehow immediately very valuable and someone will therefore give me a job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-56990153441999904152013-09-24T10:53:08.174-06:002013-09-24T10:53:08.174-06:00"It's just another sign of the times that..."It's just another sign of the times that even these so-called valuable STEM degrees are rendered almost useless by the JD Scarlet Letter."<br /><br />I can attest to this. I often feel as though I was much happier on the science path - knowing what I know now post-JD. Scientific machinery doesn't talk back. If the data doesn't come out as your boss likes, well that's just tough, don't kill the messenger. Now I can't get back in that game after being in law for 10 years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-8814942725152511612013-09-24T10:50:02.012-06:002013-09-24T10:50:02.012-06:00@9:41, well stated and I agree with pretty much al...@9:41, well stated and I agree with pretty much all you say. Cost of living is high in that area. He'd probably start off at about GS-7, which isn't peanuts. Still, if I were him, I'd probably just continue the software path unless he had an absolute yearning to be a patent attorney. One of my friends just left the PTO (in computer science art group no less) and recently got a patent associate position. It can happen, just not with the frequency that it did in the early 00's and prior. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84203661540909889552013-09-24T10:41:35.570-06:002013-09-24T10:41:35.570-06:00Yes, Fairfax and Louden county are extremely expen...Yes, Fairfax and Louden county are extremely expensive places to live and the GS-5 salary grade at the PTO is pretty measly. You have to wait 2 years until you can hotel. Maybe he can get a job at one of the new satellite offices but I've heard anecdotally that these are very competitive. In addition, things aren't going that great at the PTO. It's subject to government shutdowns and fuloughs too.<br /><br />I don't think the PTO to boutique route is nearly as open as it used to be. I think there are far too many newly-minted patent attorneys being created each year for the PTO experience to be valuable. And only the first couple of years at the PTO is of any conceivable use to law firms. After that, you're just spinning your wheels.<br /><br />I know a number of Toileteers with "valuable" STEM educations who graduated in the late '00's and who eventually got jobs at the PTO and are still there. I know patent attorneys who got laid off from law firms and now work as examiners at the PTO.<br /><br />No one goes to law school to become a patent attorny and then work for the PTO. It's just another sign of the times that even these so-called valuable STEM degrees are rendered almost useless by the JD Scarlet Letter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-7503447284481896392013-09-24T10:33:02.578-06:002013-09-24T10:33:02.578-06:00Speaking of interests, we need to convince the top...Speaking of interests, we need to convince the top tier institutions that the bottom feeders are destroying their brand and harming their graduates. Any remaining prestige can work in our favor, if we use some common sense. <br /><br />Even this poor computer whiz might have a good job today if Marymount, Pepperdine, and Southwestern didn't churn out 1000 grads (or whatever) every year. I don't think USC is an inherent scam, even though they ought to reduce their tuition by 50% as a bare minimum.<br /><br />One of my fondest dreams is to see the dean of USC screaming for Southwestern to shut down. Or the dean of Stanford taking on Hastings. I think it can happen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-24565567965314668242013-09-24T10:00:39.020-06:002013-09-24T10:00:39.020-06:00I see where you're coming from, but as they sa...I see where you're coming from, but as they say, what's done is done. This kid is better off trying to move on rather than letting himself be consumed with rage and anger. Because he is young, has a decent job, and parents willing to put him up, he actually has a shot at recovering from the catostrophic mistake he made. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-54683088200212244012013-09-24T09:12:34.377-06:002013-09-24T09:12:34.377-06:00Assuming he can still live at home, the USPTO migh...Assuming he can still live at home, the USPTO might work. However, I don't think the entry-level GS rating at the USPTO would be as lucrative as his current job, and he needs serious money to pay debt down now. If he has to move and pay rent and everything else, the USPTO idea seems to not work out as well.<br /><br />Even then, I don't think the USPTO-to-boutique-firm path is that strong lately, although there could be exceptions.<br /><br />dupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84031945532987224912013-09-24T08:33:00.312-06:002013-09-24T08:33:00.312-06:00I don't know where the kid went to undergrad o...I don't know where the kid went to undergrad or even what grads he received, presumably very good since he's a prodigy, but he should be able to land a job as a patent associate with his computer sciences background. I see a fair number of jobs for patent attorneys with comp sci backgrounds lately. Bio and chem sciences, not so much, even at the Ph.D. level. He needs to try harder to find a patent job, even go to the USPTO for a couple years as an examiner.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com