tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post1919682964383981122..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Is The Attorney Life A Life For Normal People?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-79943521680517700512016-03-06T09:45:38.799-07:002016-03-06T09:45:38.799-07:00Wow! A lawyer who tells the truth about a career ...Wow! A lawyer who tells the truth about a career in the law?<br /><br />I agree with this young lawyer. I have about 27 years in the trenches as a lawyer who has tried a good number of cases and has taken a case through the US Supreme Court and ended up winning it! <br /><br />Please understand this simple maxim, you are not paid on your prior successes as a lawyer. You are paid on your ability to generate future business, whether you have to steal, mislead, pilfer or cajol that business over the threshold. The wealthiest lawyers have mastered the majority of those skills.<br /><br />I must say my dear mentor warned me about all this, but not in detail... otherwise I would have chosen differently.<br /><br />If you are young and coming out of undergrad school, please do yourself and your future loved ones (spouse, children etc.) a genuine and ever-lasting favor to pursue something else besides a law degree. <br /><br />To put it into simple, practical, economic terms there is a present glut of about 250,000 - 400,000 law school grads. And the average lawyer is working about 9 years LONGER than his predecessor just 20 years ago! So attrition in the industry is much slower and much less frequent as it was just one generation ago. Therefore, it follows that there will be a glut of lawyers for the next 25- 40 years, without any new law school grads!<br />That profound over-supply of LICENSED LAWYERS is like a 1,000 foot-deep chasm that must be leapt by you every month. Through natural laws of supply and demand, it will drive wages to super-low levels. New lawyer expectations that were errantly based on prior lawyer revenues, price-fixing and cronyism, and were once optimistically pointed to the moon, will soon realistically dropping off the cliff. But you are not the comic book “Roadrunner”, you newbies will drop fast and hit hard. Poof!<br /><br />If you doubt the accuracy of my advice, please read "The Lawyer Bubble" by Stephen Harper. Then practice law in the trenches of the real-life litigation and revenue drivers of law firms for almost three decades, at the very top of the industry, to understand the truth in what I suggest. <br /><br />If you value a quality life, based around a wholesome family life and a satisfaction in a job well-done, please consider redirecting your thinking to some things that are more pointed toward technology and/or helping people with non-law expertise. <br /><br />The satisfaction you will gain by avoiding the now unrealistic career in the law, will be very well worth the ability to not have a ton of bricks of student loan debt on your back every month for FOREVER (non-dischargeable and follows you for LIFE). BTW, Barack Obama did not pay off his law school debt until AFTER he was elected President! <br />By avoiding lawyering as an intended vocation, your quality of life will be higher and you will make a better spouse and mother/father without the stress of debt holding you or your family from enjoying life. Your work hours will also probably be much less too, as the work schedules of new lawyers are characteristically brutal…for the first TWO DECADES! (The kids will be out of high school before you get to go to their sporting events. So you will wait another 7 years to go to the events of your grandkids since you missed all of the events of your children. ~ “Sorry, sweety. I wish I could come to your state-championship contest, but we are out to trial again and you know that means I have to work Saturday and Sunday too. Sorry. I will make it up to you some day.” Pleas know that “some day” NEVER comes.<br /><br />Please remember these simple words of wisdom that hold true to the assumption that a career as a lawyer, in a glutted market is not prudent for those who aspire to a quality of life above that of an indentured servant. "All that glitters is not golden."<br /><br />Good Luck! From a concerned lawyer litigator and truth advocate.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10835504854067604170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57204322833651703682014-01-01T22:23:05.818-07:002014-01-01T22:23:05.818-07:00I don't know what you're talking about. I&...I don't know what you're talking about. I'm a 12 year lawyer. Not only do I have a career I'm very satisfied with, but I know only a single classmate from law school who has dropped out of the profession in the years since then. And that was because she married some filthy rich dude and moved to another state. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57048887058629460502014-01-01T22:20:10.870-07:002014-01-01T22:20:10.870-07:00Biglaw firms pay high salaries in order to attract...Biglaw firms pay high salaries in order to attract graduates from top ranked law schools, who are needed for marketing purposes. Clients don't know or care how often associates like these are fired. And firms tend to be run, as mentioned above, by people with serious personality disorders and emotional defects, so associates are at the complete mercy of these psychopaths. <br /><br />Small firms have a different dynamic but similar result. They don't need pedigree for marketing purposes. They literally only need warm bodies. The partners have their core base of clients, from whom they can generate comfortable profits indefinitely. Associates fit into this equation only for the purpose of supplying labor services. They are 100 percent expendable. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-55978139842011915882013-12-31T15:07:31.549-07:002013-12-31T15:07:31.549-07:005:36 answered why the long partner track. As to wh...5:36 answered why the long partner track. As to why they pay new associates so much, I think its probably purely for prestige. Its an example of conspicuous consumption, a signalling mechanism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-34633794772467181862013-12-31T06:36:22.539-07:002013-12-31T06:36:22.539-07:00Because the only real value anyone has in a law fi...Because the only real value anyone has in a law firm is their ability to bring in clients. When they hire an associate they are gambling that their work product will be up to big law snuff and that they will be able to generate a book of business. Worker bees are a dime a dozen. There are plenty of unemployed lawyers from T14 schools who could not generate a book of business, and there are some TTT grads who have done very well because they could.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68388285188722626182013-12-30T22:25:38.731-07:002013-12-30T22:25:38.731-07:00There's a propaganda campaign for law schools ...There's a propaganda campaign for law schools in the form of utterly unrealistic TV shows portraying lawyers as rich, secure, and winning cases in front of the Supreme Court on a regular basis.<br /><br />With that campaign on, lemmings choose to believe the TV over these strange blogs that contradict its authoritative messages.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-83524567214485263712013-12-30T22:16:44.591-07:002013-12-30T22:16:44.591-07:006:20 should write for this blog6:20 should write for this blogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-87779786415519978452013-12-30T22:05:28.998-07:002013-12-30T22:05:28.998-07:00Great comment, sad story. Thanks for sharing and w...Great comment, sad story. Thanks for sharing and warning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-45495373725509989932013-12-30T21:57:10.914-07:002013-12-30T21:57:10.914-07:00Why don't the mega firms just hire more people...Why don't the mega firms just hire more people at fixed salaries (50-80k) without constantly firing them? Wouldn't they then be able to do all this crazy work some of the links detail? Why do law firms need to hire a handful of elite grads at 150k per year and constantly fire them? Why not get rid of the ridiculous partner track for most hires?<br /><br />Any lawyers out there who could answer this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-66704160498091683322013-12-29T07:44:11.715-07:002013-12-29T07:44:11.715-07:00@ 6:20 AM here again.
"There's NO room l...@ 6:20 AM here again.<br /><br />"There's NO room left for anyone wishing to literally make a dollar. No, it's not "highly competitive," "challenging," or even "cut-throat." It's filled way beyond capacity. <br /><br />The mere existence of a law school prospectus for a Class of 2017 --without the express disclaimer, "This degree is one in liberal arts and has no immediate employment application; worse, the public's antipathy towards lawyers means the degree may preclude employment opportunities"-- is disingenuous."<br /><br />------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Nailed it.<br /><br />Take a look at this, it's worth a read. And apply the sentiment to academia and academics:<br /><br />http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/21/but-not-so-much-for-the-rest/<br /><br />Do you really want to feed the schools and the greedy professors? They are the ones who'll be living in those $2m brownstones while you, the neo-serf graduate, have massive debt and live in a 3-story walkup, if you're lucky, and barely make enough to get by and pay on IBR.<br /><br />The attitude, as I recall, was the worst. And still is the worst by the looks of the shameless, sorry and pathetic responses and excuses these professors gin up for still attending law school. They have the entirety of the money by 3L, 2S so they basically give you your walking papers and send you on your way. Their lives go on as they were. While yours changes significantly.<br /><br />It's like, "HA HA! We fooled you! Bu-Bye!"<br />"P.S. -- No Refunds."<br /><br />They couldn't care less about the outcomes of their students. And now we have 15 - count 'em, 15 - separate decisions that shield the law schools from liability of students they have defrauded. But law is a "noble profession", right??<br /><br />Did anyone really expect the courts to side with the students?<br /><br />So, along with what 2:35 PM and others above and below have written, think before you leap, Lemmings. Once you sign on the dotted line, things will change for you. And odds are very much that this change will not be for the better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22083348823470721202013-12-29T01:27:36.834-07:002013-12-29T01:27:36.834-07:0030000 law grads per year all paying $150k to "...30000 law grads per year all paying $150k to "professors" is still a crime.<br /><br />We need at most 20000 law grads, and those grads need to pay $10k per year at most.<br /><br />We need to end the greedy snouts of professors gorging themselves in the trough of student loan money. That disgusting profession needs to be taken down a few notches.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-56264185535199994862013-12-29T00:22:07.049-07:002013-12-29T00:22:07.049-07:00Unfortunately as long the federal government conti...Unfortunately as long the federal government continues to throw Stafford and GradPlus loans at anyone with a pulse there is probably a floor on the number of suckers who will continue to line up for law school. Probably 30k-40k. I can't see it falling below there. <br /><br />Look at the Law School Lemmings site... These guys have no excuses. Many people are telling them law school is a bad investment, but they refuse to believe it. Its like how people continue to fall for slightly more outright scams (e.g. Nigerian 419 scams) even though they should know better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-89527969506140504612013-12-28T23:24:50.771-07:002013-12-28T23:24:50.771-07:00Great comment, Nando. As usual, you reduce a confl...Great comment, Nando. As usual, you reduce a conflict of interests to the undeniable facts. Those numbers don't lie.<br /><br />I hope your new, real, post-scam life is going well, especially for the holidays. All the best to your family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-12358466772817235222013-12-28T19:01:16.772-07:002013-12-28T19:01:16.772-07:00If the number of new graduates remains below 30,00...If the number of new graduates remains below 30,000 per year for some time, then improved job prospects could improve the general quality of law students. <br /><br />Hopefully, this country will never again have an attorney who can't read or think at an adult level, who can't write or speak clearly and concisely, who doesn't understand basic financial concepts, who thinks it's reasonable to pay $50,000 a year to listen to ignorant and desperate blowhards, etc....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-72956518001690065042013-12-28T18:33:30.339-07:002013-12-28T18:33:30.339-07:00AmenAmenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-44890468215765550852013-12-28T15:35:40.075-07:002013-12-28T15:35:40.075-07:00"Most lawyers are strictly lower-middle class..."Most lawyers are strictly lower-middle class to poor....."<br /><br />And trending downwards. That's the thing, folks. YEARS of overproduction of attorneys, coupled with the slow long-term contraction of the market, has led to this situation.<br /><br />The multitude of people who are already in the mudpit are more than sufficient to fulfill the country's legal needs until 2030, and they will experience a shrinking income each year they continue to practice, and will work free-lance until they drop. They won't be happy and they won't consider themselves successful by their own standards. They won't share with you. They can't.<br /><br />There's NO room left for anyone wishing to literally make a dollar. No, it's not "highly competitive," "challenging," or even "cut-throat." It's filled way beyond capacity. <br /><br />The mere existence of a law school prospectus for a Class of 2017 --without the express disclaimer, "This degree is one in liberal arts and has no immediate employment application; worse, the public's antipathy towards lawyers means the degree may preclude employment opportunities"-- is disingenuous. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91365369703733727152013-12-28T13:02:00.706-07:002013-12-28T13:02:00.706-07:006:20 AM here again:
This is the Real World. She h...6:20 AM here again:<br /><br />This is the Real World. She has been told that no new attorney - "new" with 5 years of experience under her belt - is worth more than $15 / hr.<br /><br />Her employers can get away with screwing her financially because, guess what? There's another $100++ in line waiting to take her place if she doesn't like it, and by "like" I mean STFU, do the work, and take your few shekels every 2 weeks. And they surely begrudge paying her THAT much, in their eyes.<br /><br />UPS drivers make that, with high school degrees. Just one example.<br /><br />Do you see doctors after they complete their residencies getting exploited by their peers like that? No, you do not. But since law is such a "noble profession", hey.. Fuck you Prole. The established attorneys know it's a seller's market out there and they exploit it to the fullest. Thank you ABA and the law schools for the oversupply.<br /><br />You did the right thing leaving the field. You'll move up. But as you say, it's years wasted for a return you could have had absent the law degree, the time, and the debt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-40100458812273333092013-12-28T12:50:07.213-07:002013-12-28T12:50:07.213-07:00Everyone can compete for the PI work, so there'...Everyone can compete for the PI work, so there's work and recoveries for everybody, right??? <br /><br />Everyone can hope to be a BigLaw partner, so there's a career for everybody, right?? <br /><br />Everyone has a shot at the lottery.<br /><br />Law feeds off this type of thinking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-83696406030612579722013-12-28T12:46:32.058-07:002013-12-28T12:46:32.058-07:00The profession has obviously exploded. Actually.....The profession has obviously exploded. Actually... it's not been a profession for some time. Lawyers won the constitutional right to advertise and legal education is available to all who ask ... yet is priced on the old 'professional' model at today's prices. That 2008 'crash' thing only hastened an impending crash.<br /><br />A perfect storm. Blame those who saw lgeal education as profit-making diploma mills.<br /><br />The sad thing is that young people (who are otherwise tech saavy and up to date) still see law as the lucrative old profession and think it is prestigious.<br /> <br />Unfortunately, to those in the know, the law-school bound student is anything but a smart, aggressive go-getter. Rather, s/he is a lazy daydreamer who hasn't bothered and kept up to date and still listens to parents' fairy tales.<br /><br />Hopefully, this country will never again have 30,000 law school graduates per year.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-14344128223916200792013-12-28T12:37:05.756-07:002013-12-28T12:37:05.756-07:00There is no reason a person with the intellect to ...There is no reason a person with the intellect to pass the bar cannot do better than security guard or minimum wage..in a jd type job or not. Heck, sell insurance if you have to..unless your personality makes you an outcast.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-81452321499292848132013-12-28T10:21:12.369-07:002013-12-28T10:21:12.369-07:00Say what?
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=la
D...Say what?<br /><br />http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=la<br /><br />Doesn't look graduates from its law schools are having that great a time of it.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-16082636370171382812013-12-28T09:55:57.754-07:002013-12-28T09:55:57.754-07:00"Most lawyers are strictly lower-middle class..."Most lawyers are strictly lower-middle class to poor. The great majority, in fact."<br /><br />Amen to that. Five years later, most of my fellow law school class graduates are in the lower class financially, and by lower class, I mean earning barely above poverty level in the US. Since only 29% of my classmates became paid lawyers (gotta love those third tier law schools out making a handsome profit!), the rest of us were left to fend for themselves. Some graduates ended up working in retail for less than $10 an hour. One graduate I know worked as a security guard - another works as an office manager. Another currently tries to scrape together a living as a law clerk for 20 hours a week - no benefits, holidays, or anything, and she has to beg for $15 an hour in California. (By beg, I mean that she has been told by the attorneys she works for that a no new attorney is worth more than $15 an hour and did I mention that she has been licensed for 5 years now?)<br /><br />Me? I ended up in a whole different career altogether, but because I tried for so long to make a living in the legal field (interning for free, of course), I am just now starting out at the bottom of my new career (translation: making $14,000 a year take home pay, part-time.) I am sure things will get better for me in a few years as I continue to gain skills in the new field, but there is no doubt that I lost a lot of valuable years going to law school learning completely unnecessary skills.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-25868896583295404062013-12-28T09:07:51.167-07:002013-12-28T09:07:51.167-07:00Come to Louisiana. No lawyer suffering here like ...Come to Louisiana. No lawyer suffering here like the rest of the countryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-42967174424502702122013-12-28T07:20:12.375-07:002013-12-28T07:20:12.375-07:00Thank you. For this post. Exactly right.
Also see...Thank you. For this post. Exactly right.<br /><br />Also see 8:33 PM:<br /><br />"People entering law school don't get that the job market for lawyers is pyramidal- it gets tighter as a lawyer ages. Very few lawyers get to work a career in full time permanent lawyer jobs. The odds are less than 25% of working as a lawyer on a full time permanent basis to within 15 years of hitting Social Security retirement age.<br /><br />Without long term employment data the scam continues to ruin lives even at the top of the profession."<br /><br />Imagine if that were true for doctors. That they couldn't work a full career, as happens with many attorneys.<br /><br />People compare lawyers to doctors all the time. Perhaps there was some semblance of parity in the Old Days. But certainly not now. Most lawyers are strictly lower-middle class to poor. The great majority, in fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-67931556121432650872013-12-28T01:11:02.660-07:002013-12-28T01:11:02.660-07:00Well, the attorney life may be tough. But the law ...Well, the attorney life may be tough. But the law professor life is a breeze. Some professors even get to watch movies and call that research!<br /><br />If you guys had just been smarter and worked harder, you all could have become law professors. Why didn't you do that? There must be something really wrong with you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com