tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post166210366460169030..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: The Charleston Saga: The Embodiment of Lucre and Malice (Updated)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-81845023206035315602015-05-14T16:16:35.304-06:002015-05-14T16:16:35.304-06:00Exactly; am I correct to assume the person giving ...Exactly; am I correct to assume the person giving the speech was one of the owners? Because, if so, I wish someone had mentioned how they had allegedly pulled 25,000,000 out of the school that could be used to keep it running while.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-71762422836446499532015-05-14T11:05:38.697-06:002015-05-14T11:05:38.697-06:00The Faculty. I'll be watching their Linkedin ...The Faculty. I'll be watching their Linkedin accounts to see where they land. <br /><br /><br /> Abrams, Andy<br /> Anastopoulo, Constance <br /> Boyd, James<br /> Bridwell, Randall<br /> Bruno, Todd<br /> Compton, Amanda<br /> Derfner, Armand<br /> Eberle, Kevin<br /> Finkel, Gerald M.<br /> Gammons, Debra J.<br /> Grant, Kirkland<br /> Gutting, Kristin<br /> Janssen, William M.<br /> Klein, James M.<br /> Lawton, Margaret M.<br /> Lund, Paul E.<br /> Marcantel, Jonathan A.<br /> McCullough, Elizabeth<br /> Mendales, Richard<br /> Merkel, William G.<br /> North, Jennifer<br /> Phillips, Kimberly D.<br /> Roig, Jorge R.<br /> Schreck, Gordon D.<br /> Shealy, Miller<br /> Shuman, Virginia<br /> Smith-Butler, Lisa<br /> Stuart, Allyson Haynes<br /> Vargas-Vargas, Geiza<br /> Want, William<br /> Williams, Aleatra<br /> Zisk, Nancy<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-72466725910858578932015-05-14T07:19:36.225-06:002015-05-14T07:19:36.225-06:00I almost feel bad for the scamprofs, because in th...I almost feel bad for the scamprofs, because in the video its the Boomer-suits who stabbed everybody in the back, but, then I think...naw, no way. They knew this was coming. They knew that graduates were being screwed left and right for decades, but they willfully, blindly went on with their lives as if the foundation wasn't crumbling,<br /><br />"Sophisticated consumer"-turnabout is fair play. Welcome to how the other half live, scamprofs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-89015523911820091942015-05-14T07:15:54.197-06:002015-05-14T07:15:54.197-06:00I love how it's always up to the employees. &...I love how it's always up to the employees. "Well, we screwballed the deal, but its all your fault and now all you lowly employees need to clean up our mess and get Infilaw back in here."dupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-16371990881330324172015-05-13T21:48:42.668-06:002015-05-13T21:48:42.668-06:00The GE rule is not officially in effect until July...The GE rule is not officially in effect until July, 2015. <br /><br />There was some question previously as to whether for-profit law schools would be subject to the rule. The appearance of these identical websites confirms the Dept. of Ed. has told them they are subject to it. <br /><br />It's better than just a disclosure rule. These schools are on borrowed time. Their graduates do not earn enough relative to the debt. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11492827218018069322015-05-13T21:43:41.527-06:002015-05-13T21:43:41.527-06:00Yee hah! Take that scamprofs!
Another one bites ...Yee hah! Take that scamprofs! <br /><br />Another one bites the dust! No sane person should enrol in law school now, not with this ongoing collapse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-52991332872767295612015-05-13T21:17:49.601-06:002015-05-13T21:17:49.601-06:00Holy cow, watched that video. To paraphrase the s...Holy cow, watched that video. To paraphrase the speaker: "You need to go grovel to Infilaw to come back if you want to have jobs next next year. And then publicly beg them to come."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47740649107161934692015-05-13T20:06:02.114-06:002015-05-13T20:06:02.114-06:00More importantly, as the article points out, not-f...More importantly, as the article points out, not-for-profit law schools do the same thing. The difference between not-for-profit law schools and for-profit law schools is of questionable relevance: the former merely siphon the money off through "forgivable loans", inflated salaries, derisory workloads, sabbaticals, travel, and so on.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-60716103534473731372015-05-13T18:09:42.575-06:002015-05-13T18:09:42.575-06:00Remember, parent institutions ("owners")...Remember, parent institutions ("owners") have been taking their $25,000,000, just like these guys have. <br /><br />Law school students have been subsidizing parent institutions. Parent institutions have been accessing the student loan conduit in the same way.<br /><br />Just ask the folks at the UMd School of Law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-50966363551812123652015-05-13T08:19:28.278-06:002015-05-13T08:19:28.278-06:00This is kind of interesting. The Charleston gainf...This is kind of interesting. The Charleston gainful employment disclosure states a placement rate of 83%. The others have an asterix and say they are not required to calculate a placement rate. This looks like a more misleading disclosure than the ABA data as far as placement goes, so I am not sure it would help to have every school have these,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22499666473512637582015-05-13T07:51:44.591-06:002015-05-13T07:51:44.591-06:00"Even if they reinvested that money in the sc..."Even if they reinvested that money in the school, what would they have done?"<br /><br />I could think of plenty of things they could have done with that money to benefit students. How about reducing tuition? How about offering a free bar exam review course? How about book scholarships? Anything to reduce the debt and financial damage would be a welcome development.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-77319350145113630102015-05-13T07:41:52.076-06:002015-05-13T07:41:52.076-06:00Well, 6:29, that's a bit too strong. Rich kids...Well, 6:29, that's a bit too strong. Rich kids with connections might do well to go to law school. Other people should be very careful. Even Harvard and Yale are not necessarily wise choices nowadays. Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-38259367869347798032015-05-12T20:15:38.663-06:002015-05-12T20:15:38.663-06:00I see your point about the individual actors. Als...I see your point about the individual actors. Also, I'm not sure if you are the guy who wrote this website...if so, I just want to say I liked the article you wrote above. I think you did a great breakdown of what happened, how it happened, etc. <br /><br />Anyway, the point we still disagree on is twofold: <br /><br />First, when you say this "how many law schools had $25 million in cash withdrawn for the benefit of individual owners in the last 5 years?" I don't get why that's relevant. Every law school, regardless of how much money some of their founders extracted, is facing the same problem as them: their graduates don't get jobs. Even if they reinvested that money in the school, what would they have done? Hire a few more "prestigous" faculty? Re-furnish the library? Pleaseeeeee. That is not going to lead to any more students getting jobs. Because the founders' personal profits are not the real problem. The real problem is that there are too many lawyers (and maybe also that the profession itself is a scam, but I haven't given that statement enough thought to really be firm about it). <br /><br />Do you not think that these guys fulfilled their basic obligation to their students? They provided them with a law school (remember, I bet most of these kids couldn't get into other law schools), which allowed them to sit for a bar exam. Believe it or not, that is the basic obligation of law school. Now, I agree that most of the schools fudged employment statistics, used bait-and-switch scholarships, and surely led people to believe that the legal market was good when it wasn't. But again, in any other profession that is called "marketing." Also, they were not alone. I, personally, didn't go to law school because the founder of the law school told me it was a good idea. I went because my parents told me it was a good idea, and so did other lawyers, hollywood, my neighbors, current law students when I toured the place . They all said it! And that's what convinced me to go. <br /><br />And I just want to reiterate that I'm not arguing with you to piss you off. I like what your doing here, just throwing in my two cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-59059231149540382752015-05-12T17:23:25.941-06:002015-05-12T17:23:25.941-06:00If it required that at least 50% of the class be w...If it required that at least 50% of the class be working at federal clerkships or jobs in Big Law ten months after graduation, only 13 law schools would qualify. Shade that to 40%, and still only 16 would qualify. Even at a lousy 10%, only 78 law schools—barely one in three—would make the cut.<br /><br />Source: http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.ca/2014/12/guest-post-by-old-guy-which-law-schools.html<br /><br />Why make arbitrarily large student loans available for law skules from which almost nobody, or even nobody at all, gets a job with reasonable prospects of supporting the payments on those loans, at least for a few years?<br /><br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57883286529357301362015-05-12T16:18:19.470-06:002015-05-12T16:18:19.470-06:00Agreed. But it would never fly because blacks and ...Agreed. But it would never fly because blacks and hispanics score lower onthe lsat and it would be seen as discriminatory Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-7897776599540667482015-05-12T15:05:00.790-06:002015-05-12T15:05:00.790-06:0012:22, not many here will disagree with you that t...12:22, not many here will disagree with you that the federal loan system is a big problem. That does not mean the individual actors in the system (for-profit/non-profit/whatever) are absolved of abuse. You are flat-out naive if you believe that all individual actors in bad systems exploit the system equally. Believe it or not, there are actually good administrators in legal education. Heck, only 2 of the 5 CSOL guys appear to be wanting to suck every dollar out.<br /><br />Did you even read and understand the original post? I say rather explicitly the for-profit thing isn't the end of the inquiry. <br /><br />That said, answer me this: how many law schools had $25 million in cash withdrawn for the benefit of individual owners in the last 5 years?Law School Truth Centerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166092871374037640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-58443893419013603972015-05-12T14:34:18.655-06:002015-05-12T14:34:18.655-06:00If Congress would impose a 150-minimum LSAT score ...If Congress would impose a 150-minimum LSAT score to get Federal student loan money, a lot of the problems with lawscam would instantly disappear.... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-51573118500564740352015-05-12T13:22:43.873-06:002015-05-12T13:22:43.873-06:00Original commenter here....
For the past three co...Original commenter here....<br /><br />For the past three commenters, especilaly (7:41):<br /><br />I think you make a great point. I love almost everything you say. You're right, we were lied to and taken advantage of. As commenter Adam b. says, that hurts emotionally. I feel the same way. I spent so much of my life working hard to get into law school (e.g. good grades, "staying out of trouble", etc.) and for what? I have friends that barely graduated high school or took 6+ years in undergraduate, and they are doing 100 times better than working public sector jobs or private, non-law jobs. I'm a year removed from law school and I'm still and hourly employee (my hourly rate, luckily, has been moved up) but I make less than my friends who did not do nearly as well as me in school. It hurts me everyday. And not jealousy for my friends, I'm happy for them, but I just feel so embarrassed that I worked so hard, and I feel like there were many opportunities in life that I missed chasing this mirage called a legal career. Adam B. is also right, the scam goes back years, to junior high school. <br /><br />But related to that, it isn't just the law school founders who perpetuated this scam. It was my parents, my teachers, my friends and neighbors. Almost everyone drank the cool-aid. But worst of all were the lawyers in the profession. So many of them told me "congratulations" when i said I was going to law school. They patted me on the back, and told me how law school was going to "teach me to think like a lawyer" and all this other bullshit. How could they do that? They must have known it was bullshit; they were in it. Only one guy really ever said me "don't go," but that was a week before I enrolled, and it was too late. <br /><br />On the other hand, I have single-handedly deterred about a half-dozen future law school students. I tell them, emphatically, "NOOO". Why didn't the older generation offer me this same honesty? I don't know, and it hurts everyday I show up this this shitty job. <br /><br />Finally, back to my point a little. I feel like many people are blaming the administrators just because they are wealthy. I blame them for fudging employment stats, bait-and-switch scholarships, and general deceit, but I recognize that in pretty much any other industry this is called "marketing." <br /><br />Commenter 10:37 is getting hung up on the for-profit vs non-profit structure of htis law school, but I'm not sure why it matters? They both would charge a high tuition, and both would leave graduates unemployed. As I said before the problem is the surplus of lawyers caused by federally guranteed funds. The founders of the law school just did what you and me want to do...make a profit. Now, were they kind of dicks about it, yes. But they are lower on the totem pole then most people make them out to be. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-14100764176680710272015-05-12T11:37:45.424-06:002015-05-12T11:37:45.424-06:00"the truth is If they didn't open this sc..."the truth is If they didn't open this school, someone else would have"<br /><br />Yeah, that's actually not true at all, and were it true, it doesn't mean the alternative school would have been for-profit with the prospect of individual greed driving the school into the ground. Law School Truth Centerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166092871374037640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-76696283029281334292015-05-12T10:59:48.293-06:002015-05-12T10:59:48.293-06:00New commenter (7:41) - this is a great articulatio...New commenter (7:41) - this is a great articulation of why the higher education scam hurts emotionally, not just financially. We were betrayed and grifted by the people and institutions who supposedly were the benevolent keepers of wisdom and knowledge. And I feel as if these players were knowingly conning me for as far back as I can remember - at least from junior high school onward.Adam Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12458070600725040309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-38344199387609795692015-05-12T10:26:03.947-06:002015-05-12T10:26:03.947-06:00Actually, I misread the LG&M post. He lost th...Actually, I misread the LG&M post. He lost the Magistrate gig back in 2008. Maybe that was the reason he decided to start cashing in $25 million in chips in 2010.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-58950417871226770782015-05-12T08:41:09.916-06:002015-05-12T08:41:09.916-06:00Hi, new commenter interjecting here.
We're a...Hi, new commenter interjecting here. <br /><br />We're all victims of the higher ed debt matrix, but I want to dismiss this notion that government loans themselves are to blame. The OP is suggesting that simply making the money available is the problem. If you want to talk supply and demand, ask why there is insatiable demand for higher ed loans.<br /><br />Today credit in its various forms is so easy to get, people don't need to go to college simply for "free" money. Massively cutting back student loans could help temper college prices, no doubt, but they can't do it because the populace at large would absolutely freak. Everyone has been brainwashed into believing that your future is sunk without a higher ed degree.<br /><br />Going to college is a story we've all been told our entire lives, it was a foregone conclusion, the natural extension of how we were raised. In every school in America, the assumption is that every student will attend at least some college. Could you imagine the backlash if a school said it wasn't trying to send its students to college?<br /><br />School more or less was our lives for apprx the first 20 years. It is an institution that raised us in many ways, and was only presented as something benevolent and good. And to be betrayed in the end, to be absolutely swindled by the system that we were told only to trust, makes the situation all the more devastating.<br /><br />This is why student loans and law school loans get people so upset. This is why we blame the administrators and professors. They tasted the student loan blood and became drunk and overindulgent. They were the ones who raised the prices; the unlimited loans only came later to meet their insatiable greed. To fund their good life today, they've hung a trillion dollar+ loadstone around the necks of the next generation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-42943637733001107632015-05-12T05:55:10.214-06:002015-05-12T05:55:10.214-06:00Excellent post.Excellent post.Adam Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12458070600725040309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-37831715136145401542015-05-11T21:44:53.532-06:002015-05-11T21:44:53.532-06:00Hey, I'm the original 9:35 commenter. I just ...Hey, I'm the original 9:35 commenter. I just want to say that I AM a victim. I went to a shit law school. Not nearly as shitty as this one, but it was tier 3 (ranked in the bottom half of the top 100). <br /><br />I have some specific responses to you guys:<br /><br />4:41 said "...And sure reform the federal system - that's already begun to happen. Get up to speed by targeting the real perps." Has reform of the federal system begun to happen? I don't know of any reforms. Also, consider this: when people died in WTC or their homes wrecked by tornadoes or hurricanes, or even for things as simple as food stamps or welfare, the government has checks in place and requires proof of need on a continuing basis. They don't just hand the money over. But for student loans, it's practically a blank check. <br /><br />In response to 6:42, who said "There is apparently a whole group of people like 9:35 who like targeting and taking advantage of 'happy idiots'....It's not enough that it may be morally or ethically repugnant; it's "if they are willing to be scammed, then you're a fool not to scam them." Remember, as I said above, I am a victim of the law school scam...that's why I peruse these boards. But I disagree that the major culprits are the law school deans and founders. They aren't the reason that law graduates can't get jobs. Law grads can't get jobs because the market doesn't need so many lawyers. Supply-and-demand is REAL thing, like gravity. What goes up, must come down...when supply is greater, demand is less. Actually, the law school founders and deans kind of fulfilled their promises. They promised a legal education, a diploma, and eligibility to sit for the bar exam. That's it, and that's what the students got. [*Note: I agree with you that they engage in shitty conduct such as fudging employment statistics, bait-and-switch scholarships, and several other shady practices, and this leads to the implication that you will get a job out of law school, but I don't agree that this is the root of the problem. In any other industry, these practices are called "marketing" (no one is going to tell you that their product sucks). So again, I agree with you that these tactics suck, and need to stop, but I disagree that it is the root problem.] Again, these founders and deans more or less fulfilled their basic responsibility: they eventually got ABA accreditation and their customers (students) were able to sit for the bar exam. <br /><br />You want to punish Founder Bob and Dean Smith, but the truth is If they didn't open this school, someone else would have. But as I said, the problem is that the money is there. The incentive is there. That's what the government wants them to do. It has decided that higher education is a priority for its citizens/lemmings. But the problem is that, as history has shown, government is an inefficient dictator of the market. Again, if people had to pay for law school out of their own pocket, I don't think most of these junk schools would have opened. <br /><br />To 8:06, who said "Happy idiot, sad idiot, whatever, it's not acceptable behavior." I just want you to know that I am an idiot also. I went to law school, struggled to get a job, and am so far away in life from where I expected to be that I get depressed and peruse these message boards looking for some kind of consolation. <br /><br />Lastly, to everyone, the final paradox we need to answer is whether the legal profession should be exclusive at all. That, I believe, is the intention of these unlimited government funds; i.e. to make so many attorneys that it is no longer an exclusive profession, and maybe barely a profession at all. Is this a good thing? I don't know the answer to that one. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-23229611340222478192015-05-11T18:38:16.358-06:002015-05-11T18:38:16.358-06:00This statement needs to be highlighted:
"I r...This statement needs to be highlighted:<br /><br />"I realize now that the law faculty was (and most are still) conveniently and theoretically liberal but very willingly participate in the country's largest professional income gap producing machine which disproportionately destroys the lives students who come from the lower and middle classes."<br /><br />As long as they talk the correct talk, it doesn't matter how evilly they walk the walk.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com