tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post8254132735249222478..comments2024-03-18T11:05:17.083-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Reality Check – Are you still going to law school for the right reasons?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-69501434060427513252013-07-25T08:49:04.056-06:002013-07-25T08:49:04.056-06:00I'm a tax lawyer; started out in BigLaw for ab...I'm a tax lawyer; started out in BigLaw for about 10 years and then moved to a much smaller firm, so I know the market pretty well. I think very few people should go to law school in this environment. That said, I think your reasons are relatively decent. I would note that unless you want to work at a small firm, you should expect to go back for an LLM, which will be another couple years of tuition, and you should also count on living in NYC or DC for that period.<br /><br />Given that you must have pretty substantial savings to expect to have to borrow only 15k/year, I'd also urge you to think about what other, perhaps easier, perhaps more satisfying businesses you could capitalize with those savings. Accountants will always be in greater demand than tax lawyers. Tax lawyers also tend to be on the service end at most firms, meaning that you'll usually help the clients of the corporate group, rather than bringing in your own clients, meaning in turn that you're likelier to be labor than management--always dicey, and a recipe for instability.<br /><br />Here's my general advice to 0Ls, and I think it applies to you, too. In my opinion, you should only go to law school if (a) you can't imagine being professionally satisfied as anything but a lawyer, and (b) you can make the finances work out such that you owe less than you can reasonably expect to make your first year out (with the caveat you cannot reasonably expect to make $160,000 a year if you're not going to HYS). It sounds like you're in a decent position to make the finances work out (though read the fine print on the scholarship carefully, and if it has any requirements re: class standing, run, don't walk, away). <br /><br />From your tone, I'd guess you think of law school as something you could do, rather than something you have to do. That was my attitude when I went, and I think that's the attitude of the vast majority of folks who go to law school. From what I can tell I suspect a healthy majority of my classmates now regret going to law school, and again, we were the lucky ones. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62466659930165086482013-07-22T07:36:20.257-06:002013-07-22T07:36:20.257-06:00Ok I'll bite and put myself out there. Here...Ok I'll bite and put myself out there. Here's why I'm headed to law school this fall.<br />1. I'm interested in tax law, have an accounting / finance background, and have talked with tax lawyers and find their careers / lifestyles to be desirable.<br /><br />2. I'm headed to a pretty good school (UVA / Michigan / Duke) with a decently sized scholarship (comes to about 55-60% off tuition). I've built up some savings to cover cost of living and some tuition, so ill be in about $45k of debt at graduation.<br /><br /> I'm geniunely interested in your opinion because I believe a fair amount of what you say about law school (and in my opinion, paying sticker tuition cost for any other school besides HYS just doesn't make financial sense, unless you have a lot of money).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-42971331628221017272013-07-22T02:52:45.159-06:002013-07-22T02:52:45.159-06:00Here's the only conceivable thought process ab...Here's the only conceivable thought process about going to law school that I can possibly envision today:<br /><br />"I don't believe I can do anything with my undergrad degree and being a lawyer automatically gives me professional status with a prestigious-sounding title that is accessible simply by completing school and then passing a test. I'm a proven graduate and test-taker"<br /><br />THAT'S REALLY AS FAR AS MANY STUDENTS GO... it's a totally school-centric view, and in a narrow sense, makes literal sense. FOR THREE YEARS. <br /><br />Those who analyze it further wander onto shakier ground: <br /><br />"Even if I don't get that BigLaw cush job or regular MidLaw job at a firm, I can always go microfirm or solo and make a decent living. See, I'm being very realistic and conservative; I don't assume I'll make BigLaw. I fully understand and accept that I probably won't make %160,000 a year at BigLaw, but I can still gladly live on only half of that {i.e., 80k}, so I'll be fine. Scambloggers are either entitlement freaks who thought they were entitled to 160K, or they are losers who can't get any job. I got a honors poli-sci degree; I'm a winner."<br /><br />And then there's the final icing on the cake... <br /><br />"There will always be a need for lawyers, and my experience and reputation over time will grow, and I'll rise to the top."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-12587265558302208602013-07-21T18:39:13.240-06:002013-07-21T18:39:13.240-06:00Uh, 2:57, 10:05 here. You have so thoroughly exhi...Uh, 2:57, 10:05 here. You have so thoroughly exhibited your own low intelligence and ignorance I will only respond for the benefit of those who might believe you. <br /><br />1. My wife does the payroll for the five offices she manages. I have seen it with my own eyes. You are talking out of your ass. How can you say anything about income when you don't even know what part of the country I am in? Very well off on $90K? Is it fun to live on the set of "Deliverance?"<br /><br />2. X-Ray techs have to have a thorough knowledge of human anatomy and the specific positioning for hundreds of different types of exams. Why, you ask?<br /><br />3. Radiologic equipment can be a huge profit center if, but only if, it is used correctly. If your tech has to do an exam five times to get it right then the insurance company pays for one exam and some radiologist just lost four highly profitable readings that day.<br /><br />4. This brings us to a concept you do not seem to get. The most valuable employees are the ones who can generate a fixed revenue stream per hour. An X-Ray tech who can do a full schedule with no down time on the machine and no bad images is making the doctor and the hospital rich and they will pay top dollar for top performers. This is why senior associates used to be top revenue performers in biglaw - 2,000+ billables with high realization, i.e., minimal time written off or uncollected.<br /><br />5. X-Ray techs are not taught in for-profit trade schools. There may be a few hospital-based programs left but now, for the most part, they come out of community colleges or the armed forces.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-675761514144250562013-07-21T18:34:37.439-06:002013-07-21T18:34:37.439-06:00Getting into plumbers' union is no easy task. ...Getting into plumbers' union is no easy task. You need connections to get into that line of work. <br /><br />The collapse of the law school bubble is just one of a long line of bubbles that have propped up America's looted formerly industrial economy since the 1960s. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-2090355146457447982013-07-21T17:49:32.312-06:002013-07-21T17:49:32.312-06:00The percentage of lawyers who succeed long term in...The percentage of lawyers who succeed long term in the practice of law has always been less than 50%, but in the past tuition was much lower, loans, to the extent they existed, were dischargable and the market was not super-saturated.<br /><br />See the 2nd comment in this link which I wrote, and which dupednontraditional thought enough of to quote on his site:<br /><br />http://dupednontraditional.blogspot.com/<br /><br />PS Thanks dupednontraditional for quoting my comment.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-77374165543387809572013-07-21T16:31:10.238-06:002013-07-21T16:31:10.238-06:00This blog post is about 5 years old, and about lea...This blog post is about 5 years old, and about leaving the US so as to escape student loan debt. <br /><br />I think the comments are worth a read through and very interesting, and the first commenter is a lawyer who had crushing student loan debt.<br /><br />http://studentloanstories.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/cant-pay-your-debt-just-leave-the-country/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22541238548552790422013-07-21T15:57:31.905-06:002013-07-21T15:57:31.905-06:001) They aren't paying x-ray techs $85K with t...1) They aren't paying x-ray techs $85K with two year bullshit degrees. They pay them $25K. Sorry. You sound like a for-profit "medical careers institute" shill.<br /><br />2) Cops get paid $30-40K per year, unless they are in a major city where living expenses are high. Truck drivers get paid better, but they work away from home. Maintenance workers? That's minimum wage stuff. Plumbers and electricians and all those other "highly paid" jobs are few and far between.<br /><br />Look, here's the bottom line. Everybody generally gets about $40-50K per year, no matter what they do. Teaching, cops, plumbers, lawyers, whatever. A few make lots more, and idiots (like many people on this site) latch onto those fringe numbers and say stupid things like "x-ray techs with a two year degree get $85K per year for telling you to put on a lead vest and lying down on a table", or "plumbers make sooooo much money it's KrAzY!!!"<br /><br />If you get to your thirties and you're making $45K, married to someone else making $45K, you're very well off and can easily buy a nice house, raise kids, and enjoy a calm, comfortable life. That's the message we need to send to people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-86101567922176714202013-07-21T15:49:16.583-06:002013-07-21T15:49:16.583-06:009:00AM, law has always been bad, you're right....9:00AM, law has always been bad, you're right. But it really only became a *scam* over the past fifteen years, when the "higher education administrators" came along and decided to make money from the system.<br /><br />But while it's always been hard for lawyers in recent memory, it's far harder now than it was ten years ago, or twenty years ago. Those graduating now are screwed, whereas you only struggled.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-27937892650408647572013-07-21T14:40:40.727-06:002013-07-21T14:40:40.727-06:00The right reasons to go to law school?
That's...The right reasons to go to law school?<br /><br />That's a real challenge. Cannot really think of any. Law school, as now structured, is geared to the production of fresh young lawyers for law firms. It sure doesn't teach solo practice. The law firm market (and I mean all types of firms... not just big law) largely no longer exists, or to be more accurate, is now so emaciated that it isn't a realistic plan.<br /><br />Law school doesn't really teach much about the history or context of our laws today, and in general, tends to look down on imparting substantive knowledge of particular practice areas in favor of very generalized theory. Casebooks are fascinating windows into this world... very little in the way of explanatory descriptive text and a hodgepodge of cases from across the years and jurisdictions.<br /><br />It was my distinct impression that law school was similar to an elaborate game in which some people --either through better gamesmanship or better inherant grasp of the game-- did better. That's great, and that's what it's designed to do... place young recruits into a pecking order to be offered up for firms. Again, I'm talking all firms... not just biglaw. And it's my suspicion that the vaunted Socratic method is an attempt to toughen young skins so that they get used to working with an irritated, impatient senior partner who will become their boss. <br /><br />But that 'firm' thing has largely gone away and a return to it doesn't look promising.<br /><br />Law school ain't teaching you how to work in whatever new work arena there might be out there (and I honestly doubt there is much of one), and it has been run for years as a ranking/proxy system for law firm recruits which is no longer a growth area. And it is very clear that law school doesn't really teach you much substantive law of an actual jurisdiction and certainly doesn't teach you the context in which it operates.<br /><br />What good is it today?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-73863538702199810832013-07-21T14:27:33.288-06:002013-07-21T14:27:33.288-06:00The bigger issue is the 500,000 plus licensed lawy...The bigger issue is the 500,000 plus licensed lawyers in the United States who are not practicing and the uncertainty of the long-term employment outcomes of law graduates. <br /><br />Even for those who get the big law jobs, where do you think you are going to end up at age 45 or 50? Do you think you can hold out in a corporate job until you want to retire? Are you so popular and so good at getting along with people that you are going to fit right in to a culture where it is likely very hard to hang on to your job once you are older? Do you have strong enough interpersonal skills that you can build and sustain a practice in a law firm sufficient to support yourself? <br /><br />Most importantly, what percentage of the older classes in the law school you are attending or planning to attend have the type of job you aspire to? Where are these people working? Can you verify a linkedin profile with a great job with the person's current state attorney registration? <br /><br />The answer in a lot of cases will be poor or disappointing employment results even from the tippy top law schools and people who were once in big law.<br /><br />Then consider your other options. Might some other line of work you might like be a better bet than law if you want to be able to earn a living for a career and not just a few years?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-8766907009053699332013-07-21T14:23:24.160-06:002013-07-21T14:23:24.160-06:00cooley is teaming up with western michigan univers...cooley is teaming up with western michigan university so cooley can change its name from cooley to western michigan uni.<br /><br />of course this has nothing to do at all with all the bad PR caused by the scambloggers' attack on cooley over the past few years. Complete coincidence....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-4676846171745643132013-07-21T12:51:03.861-06:002013-07-21T12:51:03.861-06:00That article brought out the idiots in droves. Bu...That article brought out the idiots in droves. But, hey, at least many of them can be poor together, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-17393274099290683312013-07-21T12:41:07.925-06:002013-07-21T12:41:07.925-06:00$65,000 is a much better outcome than what I am se...$65,000 is a much better outcome than what I am seeing. I just saw a job posting for a non-profit attorney who needed a few years experience: $35,000.<br /><br />I had always wanted to be a non-profit attorney and was prepared to work low - but when the outfit is paying its legal assistants more, I couldn't help but see what they were offering as exploitation and taking advantage of the legal market. Who wants to work for an organization that does that?<br /><br />Only the desperate ones do...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-43586272446422070212013-07-21T12:20:37.297-06:002013-07-21T12:20:37.297-06:00Law was much better for baby boomers. It was not ...Law was much better for baby boomers. It was not that saturated, and lawyers from good schools in good practice areas could find lucrative work. Fast forward to today and many of those same people are out of work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-10275815792365825112013-07-21T10:46:13.395-06:002013-07-21T10:46:13.395-06:00I should have spent the money on wine, women and s...I should have spent the money on wine, women and song. Or a beach condo in the redneck riveria. I could discharge the credit card debt or walk away from the condo. <br /><br />I did not really want biglaw. Midlaw in a stable firm would have been nice.<br /><br />I hope as information pours in people will walk away and be respected for a sound decision like 6:27 a.m. discussesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-72093790950427406382013-07-21T10:00:58.277-06:002013-07-21T10:00:58.277-06:00Yep..
I tried volunteering when I graduated and c...Yep..<br /><br />I tried volunteering when I graduated and couldn't find anything.<br /><br />That's right.<br /><br />Non-paying volunteer work.<br /><br />And for all you out there, this was 15++ years ago.<br /><br />The idea that law became bad after 2000? Sorry kids. It was bad long before then. And it was also bad 15 years before what happened to me. The differences being the debt level and the ability of people then to transition to careers outside of law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-79604432755400712552013-07-21T07:27:36.806-06:002013-07-21T07:27:36.806-06:00There should be a posting that distinguishes the c...There should be a posting that distinguishes the colloquial, pejorative concept of "dropping out of school" from making a sound business decision.<br /><br />Clearly, middle-class America looks down upon and fears "dropping out of school." Quitting school is the same. All sorts of unfair, wildly biased stereotypes start playing on the mental screen: the unwed young parent who has to support his/her out-of-wedlock child; the 'minority' kid who was never grasping the material and was being disruptive; the stoner who was always so high that he never grasped anything...<br /><br />We don't like this, and so we have things like 'Project Graduation,' we create extensive GED programs, and we chant "Play it cool; stay in school."<br /> <br />Yeah, I understand that all that's about high school. But the mindset carriers over to school in general. Quitters never win, and a winner never quits.<br /><br />But what do you call it when you analyze a situation and make a business decision based on hard facts? For example, a large international company --Global Bank, Ltd-- advertises that it's conducting a long-term search for a number of top-level executives from around the world. To help qualify yourself for one of these absolute dream positions, it's very advantageous and expected to take several time-consuming, expensive seminars to gain familiarity with the global banking system and the practices of Global Bank, Ltd. <br /><br />You want to compete for the position (which given what the company is saying, appears to be ideal for you), so you embark on the seminars. Two weeks into the seminars, however, the company announces that the company's business plan means that ideal candidates will all come from developing countries and that, for geopolitical reasons, no candidate will be selected from the US.<br /><br />If you're from the States, do you keep going?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-32307981728398732902013-07-21T06:51:51.999-06:002013-07-21T06:51:51.999-06:00Totally agreed. Didn't mean to imply the situ...Totally agreed. Didn't mean to imply the situation was rosy before the Great Recession; it wasn't. And it's been steadly deteriorating for years. Should the recession compl;etely fade, things in the law world won't bunce back. <br /><br />I meant, WAY in the past, like in grandpa's day, when a lot of today's parents had their societal outlooks molded.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-64900206770598273532013-07-21T04:00:58.609-06:002013-07-21T04:00:58.609-06:00Me too. I think that once I knew the Biglaw job w...Me too. I think that once I knew the Biglaw job was not going to happen (by December of my 2L year), I should have cut my losses and left. I would have halved my student debt - more than halved, in fact, as I had a bar study loan thrown in there at the end - and I would have saved a year and a half of wasted time. I could probably have gone back to my prior career field because my skills would only have been a year or so out of date, something that could easily have been rectified, and I would also have been able to hide the law school on my resume and never suffer the continuing problems that having a JD on my resume causes even today.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10157020541840080308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-25836288452503684902013-07-21T03:56:26.312-06:002013-07-21T03:56:26.312-06:00Thanks Nando. Now we need to change the stance of...Thanks Nando. Now we need to change the stance of others out there who want to change but who feel, for whatever reason, that they can't. And to those people, let me say that life is so much easier when you don't have to spend your entire day constructing twisted and fragile arguments as to why the current legal education system is not failing, or going to bed at night knowing that you're helping to ruin the lives of many bright young students who could do far better than a third tier JD.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10157020541840080308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62938420759314220232013-07-20T20:17:05.509-06:002013-07-20T20:17:05.509-06:00This is actually what could end the scam at a seco...This is actually what could end the scam at a second or third tier school. <br /><br />These schools are already feeling the pinch with fewer new students, and with schools up the chain having fewer students, they are going to take more transfers. So with a chunk of the top 10-15% transferring up and out, imagine what might happen to a school that saw the majority of the bottom 25% drop out en masse?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-5164809126671275572013-07-20T18:57:10.231-06:002013-07-20T18:57:10.231-06:00I wish I had left after the first year. And I wis...I wish I had left after the first year. And I wish this amount of information about the scam had been out there 7 years. Keep up the good work. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-25592545879525115352013-07-20T16:08:52.074-06:002013-07-20T16:08:52.074-06:00"That used to be different in the past...&quo..."That used to be different in the past..."<br /><br />But not as different as the law schools would have had you believe at the time (and would still have you believe now), as least not anytime in the past 20 years. <br /><br />I don't think there has been a year in the last two decades when any more than about 75% of law school grads found real, permanent, full-time jobs as attorneys. That's better than the c.50% of today, but it isn't like the economic downturn of 2008 caused the number to drop from from something approaching 100% to 50% overnight. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-63780702861825946322013-07-20T15:34:42.970-06:002013-07-20T15:34:42.970-06:00Shave and a haircut, ten cents.Shave and a haircut, ten cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com