tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post7543108121674614695..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Guest Post: To the Class of 2016: Most of You Will Be Forgotten and NO ONE Will Feel Sorry For YouUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-63404312174136063042013-07-06T20:05:45.013-06:002013-07-06T20:05:45.013-06:00Very creative! But, you might be risking service ...Very creative! But, you might be risking service of a complaint from a certain patent attorney (supra), desperate for work and more than willing to stoop to dirty copyright enforcement. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-53809178787061953732013-07-06T19:58:37.981-06:002013-07-06T19:58:37.981-06:00Nando said: ". . . [L]aw school is a pie-eati...Nando said: ". . . [L]aw school is a pie-eating contest where the first prize is more pie." <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-23758910591364461492013-06-30T21:45:09.105-06:002013-06-30T21:45:09.105-06:00Another lesson from an otherwise pointless exchang...Another lesson from an otherwise pointless exchange; and a warning to anyone thinking about law school and being a lawyer; and another--perhaps more important--reason not to go:<br /><br />This is your world. Read through these threads. Read through forums elsewhere. Absorb the profane attacks (especially elsewhere), often for the most mindless of "offenses". <br /><br />"The Kardashians aren't the most awesome chicks on the planet?!?!?! Eff you, you f..... a..... sh..... m......."<br /><br />These are the people you will be working with until you quit law, or die. [Not the Kardashians, but those in basements writing about them.] These are the thoughts of people freed from the social conventions of actually confronting their victims--looking at someone while they talk.<br /><br />This is not the norm in all professions. There is snarkiness everywhere to be sure, especially with the advent of the internet. But even so, the law is different, and worse. In business school you will face competition just as severe, if not moreso. Yet in most cases it is a competition to beat you with a better proverbial mousetrap. In graduate school the sluice is sufficiently restricted (usually) to provide some indication of future, so much of the contest is in brown-nosing and pseudo-intellectual naval-gazing. <br /><br />In law, however, the game is more zero sum. By design. There are no mousetraps. There aren't even clever Socratic discussions, anymore. It's re-regurgitated nonsense, mostly misunderstood by confused and frustrated law students distracted by, well, the Kardashians. Add a forced curve and decimated demand, and you have the makings of those who will cut you down just because they can. Perhaps that's their sense of power. <br /><br />Do not think this is especially true only now. When I was in law school, many years ago, there were those who played these same nasty games, although more subdued because much was in person. [Except for the library, where cases were frequently ripped out of reporters.] Often with absolutely no personal benefit other than to put someone down.<br /><br />So, disregard the content discussed, and read instead the personal attacks and venom and frustration. <br /><br />This is your world, if you so choose.<br /><br />Thane.Thane Messingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-55719477001743632182013-06-30T20:40:25.267-06:002013-06-30T20:40:25.267-06:00These are young people being surveyed, and many ar...These are young people being surveyed, and many are in second tier cities, not New York, Boston or Washington. This was 2007- good times. You need to take the response with a grain of salt. <br /><br />Most people are okay with the life style. I did big law for years and years. Not that it is easy, it is actually quite hard if one is trying to balance family and work. I was never unhappy. In fear of losing my job, maybe, but it was very pleasant to work in big law.<br /><br />The problem is the difficulty of holding on to a job. The problem may be more acute in a larger city and definitely becomes more acute the older one gets. At 37 or 38, lawyers are still young enough for most or many to not suffer acute age discrimination that is the mantra of the legal profession. After age 50, it is a different story. Years of a futile job search is very stressful and would make any happy person very unhappy with their careers. <br /><br />Try the class of 1977 and the class of 1987 at UVa today in the midst of a jobs crisis in the legal profession and use ABA and NALP standards, and ask about job satisfaction. There will be a lot of ruined, ended careers and a good share of bitter lawyers - bitter that they were scammed by the law schools and law firms glutting the profession and making it very hard or impossible for many of these older lawyers to work in any type of gainful employment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-52187920046716787162013-06-30T18:00:10.195-06:002013-06-30T18:00:10.195-06:00"'3:21'/Thane"
Anon 1:52 -
&#..."'3:21'/Thane"<br /><br /><br />Anon 1:52 -<br /><br />'Twas in fact not I. I do appreciate the comment from whoever did write it, but you're not likely to believe anything from USIs (or WSIs), apparently.<br /><br />Read, don't read. Attend, don't attend. Insult, don't insult.<br /><br />Thane.Thane Messingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-1514923408517601872013-06-30T14:52:11.292-06:002013-06-30T14:52:11.292-06:00"3:21"/Thane obviously suffers from Unwa..."3:21"/Thane obviously suffers from Unwarranted Self-Importance. Love the plug to buy his book. <br /><br />Speaking of books, didn't he also write one a few years ago that hyped law school attendance?<br /><br />Some people have no shame. And some of them like to pretend that they went to "Harvard."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62223049518116523772013-06-30T14:03:10.034-06:002013-06-30T14:03:10.034-06:00This is worth emphasizing to any prelaw out there:...This is worth emphasizing to any prelaw out there:<br /><br />"[N]o law firm will hire or retain that person without a huge book of guaranteed portable business. Very few lawyers have that book of business, and many spend the bulk of their time looking for work...."<br /><br />Anon 6:39 is exactly right, and if anything understates the case.<br /><br />1. Employers will hire only those fresh-meat grads who are of use. Law graduates have zero practical knowledge (what should be a shocking indictment of their education), which means zero initial use, which means that employers use rank/grade as proxies for raw talent for *future* use. They don't like this, but perversely it helps them (because only their level of graduate is of any legal threat, *and* their many former associates present future business opportunities), so they go along. <br /><br />2. Thereafter, lateral hires happen only for those who, yes, add value. "Value" equals portable business. This applies to ALL lateral hires, at all levels.<br /><br />Build yourself a business (think Lincoln Lawyer) and, yes, you can find a home. Chances are, however, that if that is true, YOU'RE the one in the driver's seat.<br /><br />Read Morten Lund's book on negotiation for a hint of both how firms approach this and how lawyers do. <br /><br />In short, for anyone considering a law career, a post such as Anon 6:39's should be read and re-read a few times.<br /><br />Thane.Thane Messingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-83022496588811447462013-06-30T13:01:51.499-06:002013-06-30T13:01:51.499-06:00what I find most interesting about this article is...what I find most interesting about this article is not that there are jobs available, but the life satisfaction many lawyers seem to have. You read these sites, and everybody talks like working as a lawyer is a life in Hell . . but this article belies these assertions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47415058134188922222013-06-30T08:19:58.639-06:002013-06-30T08:19:58.639-06:00Just to clarify, you may get some tax benefit from...Just to clarify, you may get some tax benefit from buying your own health insurance on the individual market, but the insurance will be significantly more expensive than if it were employer-provided. It may substantially reduce what you earn as a temp and make being a temp without employer provided health insurance very disadvantageous.<br /><br />It is important to understand the carnage that up or out has wreaked on the job market for experienced lawyers. It is brutal, and the law schools are pretending that carnage does not exist.<br /><br />The communications from my top law school ask for gifts or invite me to some obscure seminar, and sometimes to a very expensive meeting. The law school does not offer job help, retraining help - nothing. They are blind to the suffering of so many of their grads.<br /><br />Some us really need retraining to work again. There is no job after big law that will hire us. There are too many of us and as a result the skills that most of us have do not match the job market.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-52257091874969460922013-06-30T07:59:31.591-06:002013-06-30T07:59:31.591-06:00"Oh, people can come up with statistics to pr..."Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that." - Homer SimpsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-43447429460059834172013-06-30T07:39:45.616-06:002013-06-30T07:39:45.616-06:00For lawyer looking for work over the age of 50 wit...For lawyer looking for work over the age of 50 with a Harvard, Yale, Princeton undergrad degree and top 8 law degree, and years of big law experience, no law firm will hire or retain that person without a huge book of guaranteed portable business. Very few lawyers have that book of business, and many spend the bulk of their time looking for work, without a real job. <br /><br />Being a lawyer over the age 50 is like being a minority before the civil rights laws were passed, - you simply cannot find any work. But age-related discrimination in the up or out context is perfectly legal because it is based on experience, not age. After all, people can attend law school at age 80.<br /><br />Let me explain the economics of health insurance for such a person. All of you will be required to carry health insurance starting in 2014 for you and your dependents, or pay a penalty. If you are finally lucky enough to get a temporary job after two years of complete unemployment, at the princely sum of $70 an hour and the skies open up and you get 1,000 hours of work from that temporary job, the liklihood is that you will not have health insurance from that job. Many temp employers follow the minimum standard and treat temp lawyers like food servers at McDonald's. You need to work at least 30 hours a week for a full year in order to qualify for health insurance, and during that first year, you are not eligible for employer provided health insurance. The liklihood is that you never get to health insurance because you are not there long enough. If you have to pay for your own health insurance and buy it on the individual market, it is after tax. You do not get the tax benefit of employer provided health insurance. You may be down to $40,000 or less of earnings for that year, which is what the $70,000 job would pay if it provided health insurance and the employer spent the same amount as they paid you, but allocated some to health insurance. This is after two years of unemployment and with a top 8 law degree, Harvard, Yale or Princeton undergrad degree and years of big law experience. You are making less than the paralegal who just graduated from your top college last year, and unlike that person, do not have a real, full time permanent job and you cannot get such a job in a glutted lawyer market.<br /><br />So good luck with your legal career. And do not think that your Ivy background confers an advantage. When you get older, it has about the value of a roll of toilet paper.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-72149008761616071372013-06-30T04:21:40.601-06:002013-06-30T04:21:40.601-06:00Forgotten attorney, you seriously never knew who T...Forgotten attorney, you seriously never knew who Thane Messenger was until now?<br /><br />That unfortunately shows how new you are to this scene, not him. At least do your research before mouthing off. Plus why are the mods on this site publishing blog posts from somewhere else, especially FA's drivel.<br /><br />Complain about the price of the book, but please also complain about the book by Campos (half the length, twice the price, and just old posts from ITLSS - so four times the complaints please) and the Tamahana book (a real book, but 5 times the price, so five times as many complaints please.) I have read all three and con law is by far the best in terms if content, common sense, and value for money.<br /><br />Plus the other two are written by law professors, both of whom are still law professors!!! Where is your anger about that?<br /><br />Better yet, just go and spend the three bucks and read the book before spouting crap about it. We have few resources backing up our position on this site, so your trashing the one we have a good relationship with out of what seems like a mix of ignorance and spite is kind of pathetic.<br /><br />Mods, please keep FA in the comments only in the future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-69046787669876141712013-06-30T01:42:27.112-06:002013-06-30T01:42:27.112-06:00Atty -
I have been here in one form or another fo...Atty -<br /><br />I have been here in one form or another for nearly two decades. I have been accused of being many things, but a mouthpiece for law schools is not one of them. <br /><br />Are the books pro law school? Seriously? Have you read any? <br /><br />I would certainly support anyone arguing for Tamanaha's or Campos' books, but why and how is that an objection? (And by the way, Cooper's and my book is half to one-quarter the price of either.) Take your pick. Or read it online. Whatever.<br /><br />"Put your money where your mouth is. Reduce the price of your book to two cents and make it available only on Kindle."<br /><br />Wow. Just . . . wow.Thane Messingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-71759625132568156152013-06-29T23:47:02.887-06:002013-06-29T23:47:02.887-06:00Thank you for missing the point.
That study is:
...Thank you for missing the point.<br /><br />That study is:<br /><br />1 - ancient<br />2 - written by law professors as a sales piece<br />3 - follows only grads of one top 10 school from one year<br />4 - contains so much statistical vagueness and trickery that it makes US News good in comparison.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-81706755189449855662013-06-29T22:10:50.279-06:002013-06-29T22:10:50.279-06:00IBR needs to be tweaked soon or it will be here fo...IBR needs to be tweaked soon or it will be here forever. It will be the our generation's social security. <br /><br />The problem is that once IBR's protections are gone, a shitload of people will default on their loans. This will guarantee that our "recovering" economy will take a hit. The only other way to solve it is to allow student loans to be dischargeable in BK. <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-52701442339052557062013-06-29T21:59:01.763-06:002013-06-29T21:59:01.763-06:00Thane, the only problem I have with your book is t...Thane, the only problem I have with your book is that I never knew who you were. You came out of nowhere and you have a history of publishing pro-law school books. I have a suspicion that you are here just to promote your book. If I am going to recommend a book, I'd suggest buying Tamanaha's "Failing Law Schools" and Campos's "Don't Go To Law School Unless...." At least Campos and Tamanaha sounded the warning call back when it was considered heresy to talk critically about law school. And for free. <br /><br />You said: <br /><br /><i>But note that I never said to *buy* it. Ask the library to get it for you. Or ask me, and I'll buy a copy myself and give it to them. It's not about the money, but neither should it be a reflexive dismissal of the value of money. This is an anti-free-market perspective that has taken a dangerous hold. </i><br /><br />Put your money where your mouth is. Reduce the price of your book to two cents and make it available only on Kindle. I am guessing that 99% of the information in your book is available for free online. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62245675885231182932013-06-29T16:04:08.332-06:002013-06-29T16:04:08.332-06:00Forgotten -
Yes, students should look to free res...Forgotten -<br /><br />Yes, students should look to free resources. But . . . and here's where I get feisty . . . it seems that there has developed a perverse, REverse valuation of information. <br /><br />We are often told "Information is gold!" Nonsense. Information is crap. There's too much, and much that's out there is wrong, or misleading, or badly applied. Much of the *actually-useful* information is hidden, often in the open. Yet the neophyte will not be able to know which is which. This is a danger of "free" information, which in the real world costs us dearly. Here, this cost is paid by the classes of 2009, 2010, 2011 . . . .<br /><br />If my take on the common "wisdom" is even partly correct, one reason the law school scam *is* the law school scam is because of the mass acculturation of numerous strands into mostly-wrong advice. There are many reasons this happened. Primary among them is the type of "history" of law and law school that survives by vocal gunners and those who, for their own reasons, want to put newbies in their place. All one need to is read the vulgar pablum of many online forums.<br /><br />In college, grad school, and law school I worked throughout, and lived on air. So I know what it's like to be told to buy something. But note that I never said to *buy* it. Ask the library to get it for you. Or ask me, and I'll buy a copy myself and give it to them. It's not about the money, but neither should it be a reflexive dismissal of the value of money. This is an anti-free-market perspective that has taken a dangerous hold.<br /><br />Not least, what does a 0L think will happen when they graduate and are expected to spend *thousands* of dollars *every year* on bar fees, CLE, and such, which actually ARE mostly vaccuous wastes of money?<br /><br />I leave it to students to decide. They should read it all. And if they're not willing to buy and read a few extra books, they absolutely should not go to law school. Period. This is their first test.<br /><br />Thane.Thane Messingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-4897643811601084682013-06-29T15:42:09.673-06:002013-06-29T15:42:09.673-06:00The state of the legal job market today is that th...The state of the legal job market today is that there are relatively few jobs where an employer needs a person to perform a service and does not already have sufficient staffing. This is a relative thing. While there are some open jobs, there are many times that number of job seekers in the legal job market, and all of the jobs that are open require specific experience that one can only get from being hired by a law firm, corporation or the government to work in a specific practice area, usually for at least3 years, and maybe 5 to 8 years, or in a relatively few cases 10 years plus.<br /><br />Because there is such an oversupply of lawyers already employed right now in law firms (they almost all have excess capacity), no one is hiring experienced lawyers outside the first few years of the up or out system to perform a service. The only demand is if the lawyer can bring the law firm hundreds of thousands of dollars of guaranteed business. <br /><br />There are very limited numbers of in house jobs relative to the number of job seekers (maybe 2,000+ jobs a year nationally for 7,000 plus job seekers coming out of big law in a normal non-layoff year). The government is not hiring much at all. <br /><br />Where does a lawyer work a few or several years out of law school? For most lawyers, the answer by default is solo practice out of the desk or table in their home. If that does not work out, as it does not in most cases because there is a huge oversupply of solos, the lawyer can always become a real estate broker or go into sales, working on commission.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-88220042232220792202013-06-29T15:39:14.976-06:002013-06-29T15:39:14.976-06:00Sir Adam -
Professionally. We might not think th...Sir Adam -<br /><br />Professionally. We might not think that ostracism is, or should be, such a big deal. But think back to third grade and when Johnny (and Johnny's friends) wouldn't talk to you.<br /><br />Faculty lounges are not unlike recess.<br /><br />In tort law, the hurdle of the middle of the 20th century was the refusal of physicians to testify against their brethren, however incompetent. The same occurred on police forces in protection of fellow officers, however malevolent. And, ahem, among lawyers, however corrupt. <br /><br />Don't discount the power of the clique. Things of great value are denied to those who will not conform, and the definition of "conform" is often quite narrow.<br /><br />Thane.Thane Messingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-51900906063588719992013-06-29T15:27:10.742-06:002013-06-29T15:27:10.742-06:00This study was before the recession, covered only ...This study was before the recession, covered only people 10 years out of law school and glossed over the numbers of women lawyers who did not have jobs - about half the women if I recall correctly. A decade after graduation may not be long enough to experience real troubles back then because these people averaged about 37 years old. The numbers are much worse today. If you go 20 or 30 years out of law school, the numbers will go from worse to horrible. Also, the job market has worsened for people a few years out of law school in the last several years. It is no longer 2007. If this survey had used the ABA or NALP standards for reporting, the numbers would look a lot worse. Not the high percentage full time permanent employment in jobs requiring a JD, along with a handful of voluntary leavers in real business or non profit jobs and not the high salaries that UVa claims for the first year class. You can bet that few of the women who took off in this survey were able to get paying jobs that required their law degrees when it came or comes time for their kids to go to college and they need the money to pay the tuition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-56304389766127927852013-06-29T14:48:10.772-06:002013-06-29T14:48:10.772-06:00I don't know about no life after law school, a...I don't know about no life after law school, at least for grads over the last decades. I know there are a lot of anecdotal complaints how big law lawyers move to unemployed or underemployed lawyers, but I have seen no studies supporting these assertions. In fact, this study says the exact opposite. It seems that many lawyers are doing quite well for themselves a decade after graduation.<br /><br />http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/manuscandtablesMonahanandSwanson.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-31961466702493652852013-06-29T13:51:35.450-06:002013-06-29T13:51:35.450-06:00http://vtdigger.org/2013/06/27/vermont-law-school-...http://vtdigger.org/2013/06/27/vermont-law-school-makes-more-cuts-as-class-size-drops/<br />http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=vermont<br /><br /><br />These links were posted upthread, too, but I wanted to borrow them to make a comment about the level of dissembling still being perpetrated by LS administrators.<br /><br />Here's a quote from the VT LS president: “We’ve been <i><b>utterly unaffected by the drop in employment</b></i> and the reason is there is such a diversity in the direction our students go in,” he said. (emphasis added by me).<br /><br />And the reporter just uncritically laps this up - after all, surely a LS president wouldn't LIE to a reporter - and uses it as the basis for this statement: "Another piece of <i><b>news for VLS is that the job placement</b></i> rate for their graduates — which, historically, has hovered at around 75 percent within two to three months of passing the bar — <i><b>hasn’t declined</b></i>, despite the downturn in the legal profession, according to Mihaly."<br /><br />This is utter, utter garbage. VT is running 44% in 2012 for legal jobs to its grads. In 2009 it was running about 50%. I don't know what it was running in 2004, but hopefully it was higher than in 2009.<br /><br />And even if you add up ALL FT employment, including starbucks or whatever they use for coffee in VT, you don't even get to 60%, let alone 75.<br /><br />You can only get to that 75% "placement rate" if you include even all the short-term part-time employment, including those few that have school-funded part-time jobs.<br /><br />Note even ignoring the numbers, the wording "placement" is misleading - do you go to LS hoping for "placement" into starbucks? Or a law job?.<br /><br />Note the comment upthread at 10:15 a.m. yesterday about how, despite the amount of information being put out by `sites like this one, many people (and prospective students) haven't gotten the news.<br /><br />Wonder why? Maybe because we still have "official" disinformation campaigns like this one that news people pass along unquestioningly. Note that the chances of prospective VT Law students stumbling upon this local VT article (and/or being shown it by their parents, friends, school counselors) are much higher IMHO than the chances of them or their parents/etc. stumbling on the Segal NYT articles from 2011.<br /><br />That was yesterday's news, after all, and after all, we have it on highest authority that VT law grads are magically and utterly unaffected as it regards their employment prospects.<br /><br />What a crock.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-36135031969009184842013-06-29T13:48:04.605-06:002013-06-29T13:48:04.605-06:00Interesting line of comments.
Thane, you keep te...Interesting line of comments. <br /><br />Thane, you keep telling people to purchase certain books about the law school scam. They can get 99% of the information for free on the net. Please focus your recommendations to free resources. <br /><br />6:35, I and people like me have been saying this since 2005. People don't listen or don't want to listen thinking they are different. So the hell with them. You can only warn people for so long. At this point, these people should be warned that no one will feel sorry for them. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-35742722269362325532013-06-29T13:27:10.769-06:002013-06-29T13:27:10.769-06:00Hospitals don't discriminate against med grads...Hospitals don't discriminate against med grads who are too old because the medical school discriminate against medical school applicants who are too old. There's a definite "use by date" and it is very difficult to get accepted to med school as, for example, a 30 year old.<br /><br />Otherwise, I agree that law schools should follow a med school model. Med schools do not admit much more than there are slots available in residency programs. (Have there been upsets? Yes. But by and large the numbers of students graduating fairly closely approximates the need.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-10795675734604817122013-06-29T10:31:12.563-06:002013-06-29T10:31:12.563-06:00"And $30k to $70k is not bad at all, especial..."And $30k to $70k is not bad at all, especially with IBR. And, yes, IBR will exist for a very, very long time (if not forever in some shape or form)."<br /><br /><br />I pay a LOT of taxes. Why should I be forced (at threat of gov't compulsion) to subsidize YOUR law school mistake?<br /><br />This "Tra-la-la-lah I can just use IBR" attitude is sickening. It's sickening coming from students and it's sickening coming from school admins.<br /><br />It's like saying, "It's okay to borrow $200K that I'm pretty sure I'll never be able to do more than service the interest on, because the taxpayers will cover me. All good."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com