tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post5641256599614166381..comments2024-03-18T11:05:17.083-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Edward Zelinsky: The Most Deluded Law Professor I Have Seen YetUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-40634291349549715922014-06-25T19:32:04.488-06:002014-06-25T19:32:04.488-06:00though it's mostly self-study, the tests and l...though it's mostly self-study, the tests and learning is continuous. Medical Rotations are similar to the Socratic method only called "pimping", where scum attendings ask arcane questions to stump students, hoping to increase ass-kissing and differentiation for the all important match.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-23712822863119415862013-11-14T13:50:11.430-07:002013-11-14T13:50:11.430-07:00I wanted to post much the same point as you did, g...I wanted to post much the same point as you did, glad I checked the comment section first! <br /><br />You want to make law school a four year degree, Prof. Z.? Great idea. Make it an undergrad degree. <br /><br />You want to specialize in some narrow trench of law (that, hopefully, you are actually engaged in the practice of), get a masters in "health law" or "tax law" or fucking "space law" or whatever.<br /><br />Otherwise, tighten this up to two year of core cirriculum (at most) in an undergrad degree. Crux of lawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06572986619859564280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-72867100273053950322013-11-08T01:42:37.256-07:002013-11-08T01:42:37.256-07:00"Many critics belittle the substantive busine..."Many critics belittle the substantive business of legal education by dismissing my tax courses as theoretical or doctrinal. But my courses are where my students learn the law and there is much more law to learn than there was a generation ago."<br /><br />This quote is typical of the arrogance and magical thinking of a lot of law professors. The classroom is not the only place, nor necessarily the ideal place, to learn the law. Does anyone think that young lawyer would not be better off learning the application of these tax rules from a practicing attorney while making a salary? Or if you really want a fourth year of just tax law, go get an LL.M. at NYU, Georgetown or Florida.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-48866635069076112292013-11-07T12:58:34.402-07:002013-11-07T12:58:34.402-07:00I really don't think his opinion is anything t...I really don't think his opinion is anything to get upset over. Just one more nobody who tries to distinguish himself from the pack by publishing something controversial. He probably considers it a badge of honor that he showed up here and on guns and money. Remember, any publicity, even bad, is better than no publicity if a nobody is trying to be a somebody. And yes, I consider most law Profs nobodies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-52598895721167045522013-11-07T11:13:50.170-07:002013-11-07T11:13:50.170-07:00If there's a limit to the amount of money the ...If there's a limit to the amount of money the gov't is going to lend, and assuming that the tuition rates stay about the same, then there would be a continued reduction in the amount of applicants and moreover the number of new attorneys pumped into the system based on the simple fact that fewer people will actually have the financial resources to enroll in and graduate from law school. Sounds cruel for all the equal opportunity alarmists out there, but it's a supply and demand world out there. The bottom line goal in my view is to REDUCE THE NUMBER OF LAWYERS IN THIS COUNTRY. We can argue about how we get there and if that means that SOME people will be foreclosed from pursuing such an education, then I'm all for it. Again, as I indicated above, I'm not trying to be a dream crusher for all the uninformed, irrational, aspiring law school applicant's, but I'm a realist after being in this lousy profession for over 10 years now. When one dream closes, find another one. When my law firm associate position and I wasn't able to find another law firm gig, I altered my definition of success so tthat I could find happiness. In the end, getting out of the law firms along with the attendant screaming partners, etc, etc. was the best thing that could have happened to me. Again, I'm trying to "save" lives, even people coming from modest means. The reality is if you don't have the $$$ to get you through law school and passing the bar, you're completely wasting your time. There is no half-way success in law. You either have to run the whole marathon, or you're a failure ... depending on one's definition of failure (or success) that is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-32651870808500807512013-11-07T10:27:35.302-07:002013-11-07T10:27:35.302-07:00You have a point, but it really doesn't matter...You have a point, but it really doesn't matter if the market is saturated. you're little Johnny is still NOT going to find a job. I can't dictate what laws schools charge for tuition. What I do know is that there are too many attorneys in the U.S. and my informed opinion is that a 2-year program will only exacerbate the situation. Moreover, tell me a time when law hasn't been a rich man's profession? Look at it this way, a 4-year program will "save" all the poor, aspiring law students from a lifetime of indebtedness. Look I'm saving lives...!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-77727220835718705172013-11-07T06:34:52.734-07:002013-11-07T06:34:52.734-07:00I think that I will have to disagree with you Nand...I think that I will have to disagree with you Nando. I find pawn shop owners and used car salesman to have more credibility than these people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-86359080110618840702013-11-07T03:52:26.775-07:002013-11-07T03:52:26.775-07:00"Imagine a critic of medical education who lo..."Imagine a critic of medical education who looked at the explosion of medical science in recent decades and called for less medical schooling."<br /><br />Actually, this is completely incorrect. Med School requires two years of classes, then two years of practical rotations where the med students work closely with practicing physicians. The actual "schooling" where students attend classes in only two years. No matter how many clinics law schools open, as most law school professors have minimal practicing experience, law schools are only equiped to provide the critical, theoretical part of legal training.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-85477136725980881012013-11-07T00:48:13.868-07:002013-11-07T00:48:13.868-07:00Yes, that's right. Those that are poor or who...Yes, that's right. Those that are poor or who don't happen to be born into a marvelously rich family will be precluded from studying law, since they will undoubtedly no longer be able to afford law school (which is happening right now.) Just what we want, right? Keep those disgusting, normal, non-wealthy 'plebies' out of our profession!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-9682419966251936932013-11-07T00:19:55.127-07:002013-11-07T00:19:55.127-07:00Law school should be a 12-16 class undergrad major...Law school should be a 12-16 class undergrad major. You can get a 1 or 2 year masters after that. Then, if you really want, you can get a Phd.<br /><br />Restrict access to the profession with a hard bar exam. People who don't pass it can go do something else with their lives.<br /><br />Restricting access to the profession by increasing education requirements and lengthening time costs hasn't worked, and just makes people suffer more who jump through all the hoops.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-73675869188928783322013-11-07T00:16:06.294-07:002013-11-07T00:16:06.294-07:00Zelinsky's proposal reflects an unbelievable s...Zelinsky's proposal reflects an unbelievable selfishness. Law professors and law schools get extra revenue, while students get another year of school and +300,000 dollars debt to pay for it all. Much of that debt goes straight down the overhead gullets of greedy law professors who have qualms about destroying their student's lives.<br /><br />0Ls be warned: your professors in law school hate you, think of you as a con-man thinks of his victim, and just want to throw you into debt slavery so they can get paid off your suffering.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47006902543098498512013-11-06T18:33:55.695-07:002013-11-06T18:33:55.695-07:00"After 10 years of a 4-year law program, we w..."After 10 years of a 4-year law program, we would start to see a reduction in attorneys to something approaching normal."<br />I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. But no, if people are willing to commit to $100k+ and 3 years postgraduate study you think an extra year will make much difference? <br /><br />This tendency for accreditation requiring more and more years of study unfortunately has little to do with improving the quality of graduates. I'm not exactly sure why it occurs, but there's few good reasons for it. Mostly its just prestige chasing, profit seeking and an (ultimately) futile attempt to try and limit the number of people with accreditation.<br /><br />To be honest a law degree should be a bachelors degree like it is in most countries. That way even if people can't find a suitable job at least the debt load and opportunity cost will be much less.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-85649231470182779902013-11-06T17:11:38.919-07:002013-11-06T17:11:38.919-07:00And to add to my point above, at this point I real...And to add to my point above, at this point I really don't care what happens to future students of law since I've already attended law school, passed my bar exam, etc. But when was the last time you heard of educational standards and program becoming EASIER with time? It used to be pharmacy school was 5 years leading to a B.S. in pharmacy. Now all the pharmacy schools are moving toward the Pharm.D. degree, which is 6 years in length. Off the top of my head I can't think of any educational degree program that has become easier to acquire over time (excluding on-line, diploma mills; we're talking about REAL schools on this board). After 10 years of a 4-year law program, we would start to see a reduction in attorneys to something approaching normal. Now if we can just get rid of all the LLM people, but that's another story. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-63741258342109652102013-11-06T17:04:12.426-07:002013-11-06T17:04:12.426-07:00I'll tell ya, after hearing everyone weigh in ...I'll tell ya, after hearing everyone weigh in lately on how long law school should last, my take is that four (4) years would actually be a good idea. We all know that three (3) years does not make a very useful on-the-job attorney. So why should be water the program down and only make it two (2) years? Stupid idea. Ultimately, what I want is some sanity in the legal employment sector. Reducing law school to 2 years will only make the current situation worse by flooding the market with even more people. With a 4-year program, we get more serious students who actually WANT to be practicing attorneys. Those contemplating whehter to double down on a bad educational decision, e.g., a poly-sci undergrad, will think doubly hard about "floating" into law school because they couldn't find a job or they just need another 4-year vacation away from reality. Seriously, whoever said 2-years, the president included, is delusional. This is simply a supply and demand phenomenon. Anyone who can't accept that fact is delusional. Make it four years, and we will start to see a reduction in the number of attorneys being pumped out. It's as simple as that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-754334990733060682013-11-06T17:03:14.396-07:002013-11-06T17:03:14.396-07:00Someone wrote once that anything the government ge...Someone wrote once that anything the government gets involved in, or with, turns to shit.<br /><br />He was talking about taxpayer guaranteed student loans and so naturally the beneficiaries of the system will want to squeeze the lemon for as much as they can.<br /><br />Why not make a law degree 10 years and a million dollars to borrow for?<br /><br />Without consumer bankruptcy protections the scam will go on until the government cannot spare the money anymore, but the staying power of the student lending system seems boundless and sustainable for many years to come.<br /><br />Maybe the bottom line is a constitutional challenge of the non dischargeability of student loan debt, and by an intrepid lawyer. <br /><br />After all, prior congressional enactments have been turned over by the SCOTUS in history.<br /><br />I would think that the bankruptcy attorneys would have an interest, or an organization of bankruptcy attorneys.<br /><br />Or am I a naïve and green as grass pumpkin bumpkin on the cabbage cart?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-85187589478498094492013-11-06T16:58:24.693-07:002013-11-06T16:58:24.693-07:00I'm all for making Law a 4-year degree...
......I'm all for making Law a 4-year degree...<br /><br />...if it's an intense undergraduate major like engineering and we do away with the JD nonsense (which - having gone through it - I will confirm is nonsense).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-58087442625774690042013-11-06T16:19:38.478-07:002013-11-06T16:19:38.478-07:00Business professors at top institutions may get pa...Business professors at top institutions may get paid more than scamprofs. And that's unfair, because they don't use the Socratic Method (TM) and the MBA is a 2-year degree.<br /><br />Injustice is everywhere these days.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-70549203517368017972013-11-06T16:12:41.545-07:002013-11-06T16:12:41.545-07:00You know what this is about, don't you? Other ...You know what this is about, don't you? Other than the dean's own behavior?<br /><br />Answer: he increased the working hours of the professors. That gets you sued every time. Under some other pretext, of course.<br /><br />Even though the Dean appears to be a pig, I hope he brings this out in court.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-12263131949826055082013-11-06T16:02:42.761-07:002013-11-06T16:02:42.761-07:00It has to be a satire. It's quite amusing, in ...It has to be a satire. It's quite amusing, in fact.<br /><br />Don't you get it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-61624713248970517712013-11-06T15:58:05.126-07:002013-11-06T15:58:05.126-07:00Pawn shop owners...that's a good comparison.Pawn shop owners...that's a good comparison.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-4686301791393996892013-11-06T15:54:39.996-07:002013-11-06T15:54:39.996-07:00Tax professors don't construct budgets, since ...Tax professors don't construct budgets, since they don't get paid to do so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-21771853927413580042013-11-06T15:37:13.201-07:002013-11-06T15:37:13.201-07:00people would have to do their homework first. ju...people would have to do their homework first. just like they should be doing now. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84244560486925672302013-11-06T14:20:08.119-07:002013-11-06T14:20:08.119-07:00I assume that he is willing to cut his salary by 2...I assume that he is willing to cut his salary by 25%, to hold the line on costs in moving from three to four years of law school...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-66784503600064428672013-11-06T14:19:46.580-07:002013-11-06T14:19:46.580-07:00OT, but perhaps of interest, from the Chronicle of...OT, but perhaps of interest, from the Chronicle of Higher Ed.<br /><br />The dean of Case Western Reserve University’s law school said on Wednesday that he would take a temporary leave of absence, after being sued by a professor who asserted that the dean had retaliated against him for reporting potential sexual harassment, The Plain Dealer reported.<br /> <br />The professor, Raymond Ku, filed a lawsuit last month against the university and the dean, alleging that he had suffered retaliation for reporting the dean for what he believed was harassment against women. The newspaper reported last month that the university had responded to the professor’s lawsuit by saying that the matter was not an instance of retaliation and that the complaint contained inaccuracies.<br /> <br />The dean, Lawrence E. Mitchell, sent an email on Wednesday to people at the law school saying that the litigation had “proven to be a distraction to all of us,” adding that he had asked the university to permit him a temporary leave of absence. He said that the university would conduct an independent review of the accusations and that he was confident the review would “affirm that neither I nor the university have done anything wrong or improper.”<br /> <br />Mr. Mitchell said he intended to take “full advantage of the legal process to seek justice.”<br /> <br />In a statement cited by the newspaper, the university said it believed Mr. Mitchell had done “the right thing” in taking a leave of absence, asserting that his decision would allow the school “to focus on continuing its recent progress, including a dynamic new curriculum and strong fund raising.”<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-53650115875893173482013-11-06T13:11:20.497-07:002013-11-06T13:11:20.497-07:00Medical school professors are some of the only aca...Medical school professors are some of the only academics to make more money than law professors. That must really gnaw at the law profs, especially since the med school profs are able to make that money without cannibalizing their own profession.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com