tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post5106630357795786063..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: BREAKING NEWS: Indiana Tech School of Law to CloseUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-87047457287309006072016-11-12T22:39:09.662-07:002016-11-12T22:39:09.662-07:00Actually, kind of sad. Those all appear to be ski...Actually, kind of sad. Those all appear to be skilled high paying jobs that require advanced degrees. Where are these folks going to find work like that in Indiana? Manage a Vape Shop? Casino? Pawn Broker? I don't think Valpo is hiring.Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57880581519603639402016-11-08T15:02:09.073-07:002016-11-08T15:02:09.073-07:00Well there's the thing of it, 8:22. The forgi...Well there's the thing of it, 8:22. The forgiveness is based on a mindset not much different from lawprofs saying they gave up enormous wealth to pursue a nobler calling. The loan forgiveness program pre-supposes that everyone on the gubmint payroll could do a lot better in the real world which is, of course, absurd.<br /><br />The Austrians' greatest accomplishment is that they got most of the world to think that Beethoven was Austrian and Hitler was German when, in fact, the opposite is true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-446031086300533032016-11-08T08:22:21.385-07:002016-11-08T08:22:21.385-07:00The gub'mint jobs listed above come with IBR a...The gub'mint jobs listed above come with IBR and student loans are forgiven after 10 years of service. GONE, POOF!!! It is a sweet deal. I know it, Appalachia knows it and these gub'mint attorneys know it. They have a sweet deal and did well even if Appalachia charges $1.0 million per semester. I would cut off my nuts to take one of these jobs and so would thousands and thousands of other underemployed and unemployed attorneys.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-83469510264772241422016-11-07T23:51:48.241-07:002016-11-07T23:51:48.241-07:00Good analogy to baseball.
The scamsters at Appal...Good analogy to baseball. <br /><br />The scamsters at Appalachian would reply that us'n's hyar in Appalachia jes' ain't innerested in no hoity-toity jobs in New York. The fake country charm might have more appeal, however, if by the scamsters' own estimates attendance didn't cost $52k per year. Spending more than $150k, especially if obtained through non-dischargeable loans at high interest, in order to attend this Blue Ridge toilet is simply foolish: even the handful of graduates with adequate outcomes probably don't make enough to cover the payments on that much debt.<br /><br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-26678426122545408402016-11-07T07:44:07.816-07:002016-11-07T07:44:07.816-07:00Most shit hole law schools can cherry pick from th...Most shit hole law schools can cherry pick from their alumni roster and come up with a fairly impressive list of politicians, judges, practicing attorneys, and businessmen. I'm talking about people who have hit home runs with their careers. The Appalachian list is comprised of a hand full of people who have hit singles, and maybe a double or two. Nothing wrong with that, but if that's the best you can come up with, it says a lot about the school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-21373846600385252512016-11-07T04:10:15.708-07:002016-11-07T04:10:15.708-07:00Old Guy is correct.
Those "successes" m...Old Guy is correct.<br /><br />Those "successes" mirror my own experience looking back 2+ decades. The successful people from my class and others after and before (success in quotes) are not in private practice.<br /><br />Just more proof law is really a scheme.<br /><br />First, the schools and pwarfs scam gov't Fed. loan dollars then the "successful" students decide to milk the taxpayer by doing the same thing.<br /><br />Do you understand that working for the gov't at any level is the same as being subsidized by the taxpayer?<br /><br />If law has reached a point where the majority of the "successes" work for the government then it's yet another scam/sham industry because it needs to be propped up by the gov't in order to be viable.<br /><br />Basic economics.<br /><br />"G" is not making money for anyone. It's just another form of tax on the economy and drag as gov't grows distributed across all taxpayers.<br /><br />Here:<br /><br />https://fee.org/articles/does-government-spending-boost-the-economy/<br /><br />and see also:<br /><br />https://www.boundless.com/economics/textbooks/boundless-economics-textbook/measuring-output-and-income-19/measuring-output-using-gdp-92/gdp-equation-in-depth-c-i-g-x-349-12446/<br /><br />-----------------------------------------<br /><br />Finally, over 14 *years*. There are never enough "G" jobs to support all lawyers while the rest (see here and here, below) are getting killed in the Real Economy.<br /><br />Links:<br /><br />http://jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=118233<br /><br />$12.50/hr. in Los Angeles.<br /><br />http://jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=117457<br /><br />28 to 32K per year in Greenville, NC.<br /><br />$16 per hour (..at 32,000)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-39388495049597478592016-11-06T19:33:59.400-07:002016-11-06T19:33:59.400-07:00Do you know how hard it is to get a gub'mint l...Do you know how hard it is to get a gub'mint law job? It's the Holy Grail today. One needs to be connected or have a buddy or graduate at the top of their classes from a T-2 or better, even thirty years later. Every lawyer who does not make 50K or better and or works above 60 hours a week desires one. Even "Big Law" folks want a gub'mint job. My hat is off to those Alum you cite to as a reason not to attend Appalacian. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-34386343607248352892016-11-06T19:24:03.212-07:002016-11-06T19:24:03.212-07:00i read this on my phone the other day and i forgot...i read this on my phone the other day and i forgot to comment.<br /><br /><br />hahahahahaahhahahahahahahaahahahaha!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-39914459579798595362016-11-06T18:45:22.475-07:002016-11-06T18:45:22.475-07:00That list contains fourteen names and covers the f...That list contains fourteen names and covers the fourteen graduating classes from 2000 to 2013 inclusive. We can reasonably suppose that these are the best outcomes that they could find. After all, Appalachian would not advertise its less distinguished graduates, nor would it dig back fourteen years if the most recent graduating class teemed with graduates in high places.<br /><br />So what do they have in fourteen years? Three judges and four lawyers working in government, mostly from years far in the past. Two military lawyers. One lawyer in private practice. In addition, four people in various positions that don't require a JD: two people elected to state legislatures; one clerk of the court; one military grunt who was in the army before law school.<br /><br />Those thin results enable us to conclude that attending Appalachian makes no financial sense. <br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-30812139388320580402016-11-06T09:17:22.727-07:002016-11-06T09:17:22.727-07:00Old Guy,
I typically enjoy your posts and find th...Old Guy,<br /><br />I typically enjoy your posts and find the analysis spot on and sagacious. Not in this case. I studied the list of "accomplished" alumni from Appalachian Law that you posted. They seem to be doing very well. Frankly, I graduated 26 years ago from a Top Tier, ranked school and I would kill to take any of those jobs listed above. I brought home a princely sum of 27K last year as a Solo Attorney. I struggled and stretched and hustled. With other attorneys advertising traffic matters on billboards for $49.00, I guess in am no longer competitive. Potential clients just walk when I quote a realistic, fair fee. I applied for numerous law jobs, like the positions listed above, and was rejected.Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-82698103851835557732016-11-06T03:20:41.770-07:002016-11-06T03:20:41.770-07:00I went into academic editing after saying goodbye ...I went into academic editing after saying goodbye to the law. After learning "the ropes" (it took a year or so to be able to do it both fast and well), I make more than most solos, with the added bonus of not having to deal with clients or asshole opposing counsel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-72613741055666548002016-11-05T16:40:57.670-06:002016-11-05T16:40:57.670-06:00It's amazing that a toilet with scarcely enoug...It's amazing that a toilet with scarcely enough students to make up a Gospel choir employs someone just to attend to "ABA Accreditation and Bar Preparation". And he didn't come cheaply: they hired him away from a lavishly paid 31-year gig at Cooley.<br /><br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-56102464766201107552016-11-05T16:36:19.597-06:002016-11-05T16:36:19.597-06:00Which law skule will be the next to shut up shop?
...Which law skule will be the next to shut up shop?<br /><br />Not Cooley: it's big enough that it can just close a campus, as it did a couple of years ago. <br /><br />Tentatively I'll bet on the Appalachian School of Law: it's in dire financial straits, this year only 33 people matriculated, and last year a third of the entering class left (in most cases for academic reasons—in other words, failing out). To get an idea of the foulness of the finest law school in greater metropolitan Grundy, Virginia, note that the toilet boasts on its Web site of the following graduates, evidently the most accomplished in the past <i>fourteen</i> classes:<br /><br />Justin Marcum '11: 20th District Delegate, West Virginia House of Delegates; Mingo County Assistant Prosecuting Attorney<br />Joey Mossor '11: Judge Advocate General Corps, United States Marine Corps<br />Capt. Melvin “Artie” Vaughn '07: Area Defense Counsel, Judge Advocate General Corps, United States Air Force<br />Vince Riggs '06: Fayette County Circuit Court Clerk in Lexington, Kentucky; manages over 130 deputy clerks<br />Chris Fortier '06:recipient of the Virginia State Bar R. Edwin Burnette Jr. Young Lawyer of the Year Award for 2013; attorney advisor at the Social Security Administration<br />Jarrod Crockett '06: District 91 Representative, Maine House of Representatives<br />Dan Kostrub '05: partner, Steptoe & Johnson PLLC; focuses his practice in the areas of real estate and energy law<br />Dave McFadyen ’05: District Court Judge in the 3B Judicial District of eastern North Carolina<br />Matt England '05: Family Court Judge for the 14th Family Court Circuit serving Fayette County, West Virginia<br />Gerald Arrington '04: Buchanan County, Virginia Commonwealth’s Attorney<br />Capt. John K. Harris '03: active duty United States Army Reserve Officer; joined the military in 1997; has deployed to Iraq and served at various levels of command<br />Suzanne Kerney-Quillen '03: Assistant United States Attorney, United States Department of Justice<br />Daniel Boyd '02: Juvenile Court Judge in Hawkins County, Tennessee<br />Marcus McClung '00: Scott County, Virginia Commonwealth’s Attorney<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-71788580784721100532016-11-05T16:20:08.588-06:002016-11-05T16:20:08.588-06:00Full list of staff, drawn from the toilet's We...Full list of staff, drawn from the toilet's Web s(h)ite:<br /><br />Youngwoo Ban Reference Librarian and Assistant Professor of Law<br />Charles P. Cercone Dean, Professor of Law<br />andré douglas pond cummings Professor of Law<br />James A. Crilly Technology Support Technician<br />Crystal Cully Associate Director for Law Admissions<br />Laura Dannebohm Assistant Dean for Student Advancement and Assessment<br />Amanda Ebert Business/Financial Aid Office Representative<br />Celia Garza Faculty Assistant<br />Robert W. Gevers, II Assistant Dean for Career Services<br />Aretha C. Green Assistant Dean for Student Affairs and Adjunct Professor<br />Lydia LaMont Administrative Assistant<br />Adam Lamparello Associate Dean for Experiential Learning, Associate Professor of Law<br />Joni Larson Professor of Law<br />Tara L. Lewis Registrar<br />Yvonne Lindgren Assistant Professor of Law<br />Charles E. MacLean Associate Dean for Faculty, Associate Professor of Law<br />Marc McAllister Assistant Professor of Law<br />Sean Middleton Assistant Dean for Admissions<br />John Nussbaumer Associate Dean for ABA Accreditation and Bar Preparation<br />Phebe E. Huderson-Poydras Associate Dean for Library Affairs and Assistant Professor of Law<br />Richelle Katrese Reeves Admissions Coordinator<br />Janet Riley Technical Services Librarian<br />January Simpson Circulation Manager<br />Cynthia Swann Assistant Professor of Law<br />Latia Ward Reference Librarian and Assistant Professor of Law<br /><br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-64200002042852327552016-11-05T13:11:52.826-06:002016-11-05T13:11:52.826-06:00"A Tree Grows in Gary""A Tree Grows in Gary"X-RWUnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-9291671022371079592016-11-05T12:56:22.459-06:002016-11-05T12:56:22.459-06:00Well, sorry if I'm a bit late to the party, bu...Well, sorry if I'm a bit late to the party, but I also just wanted to chime in and express my joy at this wonderful development.<br /><br />If the students there have any brains, then they'll take advantage of the "Get Out Of Jail Free" card and ****ING USE IT!<br /><br />And as for the professors, especially the anonymous source... oh, now they want to cry that they're the victims? Pardon my language, but FUCK THEM!!! They deliberately lured students in with the intention of defrauding them, and now they want to cry foul? Let them struggle and suffer too. It's like many months ago when this blog posted about the hypocrite professors campaigning against paying internships for their own students; the attitude both then and now is to the effect of "only good stuff for us, but not for them!"<br /><br />I hope someone makes a list of all the deans, professors and faculty of this doomed toilet so we know where they end up.<br /><br />This is a wonderful accomplishment for us bold scambloggers. Still, ITLS was an easy mark, almost like low-hanging fruit if you will. This school got opened just as all the serious and intelligent people were avoiding law school in droves; taking down a lol skool which was founded and established before the recession might prove to be more challenging. (And even then, my money's on any or all of the 3 Infilaw schools, or maybe even Cooley. Or how about Vermont or Appalachian?)<br /><br />So, which law school do you think will close next and why? Discuss.X-RWUnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-65247634362699787562016-11-05T12:56:20.113-06:002016-11-05T12:56:20.113-06:00Great quotation, 11:20. Indeed, education cannot b...Great quotation, 11:20. Indeed, education cannot be bought at all—not from a Yale, and certainly not from an Indiana Tech. A degree can be bought, more or less; but education takes place internally, if at all. <br /><br />You can lead a lemming to water but cannot make it drink.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-47674098211492206582016-11-05T11:20:33.393-06:002016-11-05T11:20:33.393-06:00"Education is the one thing people are willin..."Education is the one thing people are willing to pay for and not get."<br /><br />Rev. Theodore HesburghAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-13153290483455366762016-11-04T18:36:50.874-06:002016-11-04T18:36:50.874-06:00The problem is that these types of job losses are ...The problem is that these types of job losses are frequent and common for lawyers. Who goes to a T8 law school knowing there is a big risk of losing your job by age 50 or so and that if this happens, your career is done? In healthcare or education, there is much less of a risk. Law is like trying for tenure with a PhD - but even more risky.<br /><br />If you are a woman or minority, your Harvard Law degree may just be a fancy degree with no meaningful job or income prospects by the time you reach middle age. It is even hard for white males, but if you're not a white male, well, good luck.<br /><br />Why take this risk when you can go to med school and practically be guaranteed an okay income until you decide to retire or have to retire on account of bad health.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-4885644473072230312016-11-04T17:41:49.117-06:002016-11-04T17:41:49.117-06:00I agree with 1:59. No profe$$or there ever publicl...I agree with 1:59. No profe$$or there ever publicly uttered a peep against the toilet until the day that it announced its closure; on the contrary, numerous profe$$ors kept singing its praises. Before the ink was dry on the announced closure, however, the media reported that profe$$ors were suing. And now we're being told that a few corrupt administrators ruined what would otherwise have been an excellent law school.<br /><br />Bullshit. Indiana Tech never could have been excellent, even with capable administrators (which it never had). It was born a Cooley and died a Cooley. <br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68223066151910519652016-11-04T12:47:39.890-06:002016-11-04T12:47:39.890-06:00Government and academia - two areas where people g...Government and academia - two areas where people get paid, no matter what, while crashing the bus. The rest of us have to live in the "real world", where failure has actual consequences.<br /><br />Must be nice to get to spend "other people's money" all the time...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-16430325852083220842016-11-04T09:20:44.345-06:002016-11-04T09:20:44.345-06:00Law schools will not provide statistics unless abs...Law schools will not provide statistics unless absolutely forced, and then likely as not the statistics will be fictional. I'm in my mid-50's and someone from my law school cohort becomes unemployed every couple of months. And when you lose your job in your 50s, you're simply done in law. Hopefully you've saved a bit and your kids are out of college so you might have the space to reinvent yourself. More often though, the kids are in college and there is still a mortgage on the house. In short you are truly screwed. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62774672496180916072016-11-04T05:48:29.261-06:002016-11-04T05:48:29.261-06:00This is a small victory. It does not hit the many...This is a small victory. It does not hit the many toilet law schools that cannot place a high percentage of their lawyers in full-time permanent jobs. It particularly does not hit the first year employment scam known as clerkship/ big law which pushes a high percentage of elite lawyers out of full-time permanent work of any kind in the short term or after a few years. <br /><br />I am just following up on the people who worked with me in big law over a period of a few years less than 5 years ago, and the employment outcomes for anyone with more than 5 years of experience are not pretty. <br /> -All of the contract partners that were made in that era of a few years while I was working there were subsequently laid off, notwithstanding their working like dogs. No, this is not a Chicago firm, but a law firm with a traditionally stable partnership. <br /> -Only one former partner in the group found a full-time permanent job. One is wholly unemployed. Another struggling in small law.<br /> - Most of the mid-level or senior associates who left in that era are struggling. Everyone found a job right out, but the jobs were not stable. In house jobs that were "restructured" out of existence after a few months, getting a job in small law that then changed its direction and laid the lawyer off, getting a job in mid-law without enough work for the job to be only very part-time in the long term, and wholesale unemployment in one case. Only one person has a full-time permanent job and that is in house.<br />- This does not include the very junior lawyers with three years or less of experience- who left outside the recession based on being "reviewed out" through the law firm's normal process of doing so. I have not followed up on them.<br />- The whole practice group has 20 or so people in the main office. They are still bringing in 2 to 4 younger lawyers a year. Several junior and more senior associates who came in after I left have come and gone since I left.<br /><br />This is a situation where the up or out policy, where everyone who leaves is "reviewed out", is leading lawyers into what you can only call structural employment. The demand is not there.<br /><br />At the older ages, the practice group in the main office is mostly white male. Very few women and no minorities in the second half of their careers work there. <br /><br />Large law firms need to have an age-balanced workforce to counteract these trends.<br /><br />Law schools need to keep track of job placement through retirement age because there is such a supply/ demand imbalance right now of lawyers.<br /><br />The scam of using jobs that will end in a year or a few years as a basis for placement has to be curtailed by forcing law schools to provide long term employment statistics. What you have now is massive structural unemployment and underemployment among lawyers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-83378181706309696252016-11-04T02:01:14.981-06:002016-11-04T02:01:14.981-06:00The people who donated millions to this dead toile...The people who donated millions to this dead toilet must be feeling awfully foolish.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-85883360176927882912016-11-03T22:20:25.208-06:002016-11-03T22:20:25.208-06:00They could come work at the factory with me. 12.34...They could come work at the factory with me. 12.34 to start, 401k matching, excellent dental plan. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com