tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post5106059902152643694..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Applicants Down 1.5% or Up 20.5%, Depending on How You Do the MathUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-74924379599700065072017-05-04T12:52:21.683-06:002017-05-04T12:52:21.683-06:00I don't feel sorry for law graduates who wind ...I don't feel sorry for law graduates who wind up unemployed, or under-employed. These people are largely jerks who lack empathy for other people. They are not deserving of any compassion or sympathy. So put on your big boy/big girl pants, get out there and work like everyone else does, doing whatever you can to earn money and pay back that debt. Even if it means bartending. Stop sniveling and whining about how you were "scammed" by law schools. You what what you paid for, which was a law degree, so nobody scammed you. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-35245514760224888082017-02-18T14:28:39.152-07:002017-02-18T14:28:39.152-07:00I don't think you are talking about occasional...I don't think you are talking about occasional top law school grads running into trouble later on. The full-time, permanent employment rate for grads of the top schools in their 50s who want such jobs would make the toilet schools' employment rates after graduation look good. You are talking about wide scale systemic unemployment and underemployment of older grads of top law schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11079299636070779402017-02-18T14:16:02.109-07:002017-02-18T14:16:02.109-07:00People need to be smarter about law school. Peopl...People need to be smarter about law school. People going to low ranked schools and not finding jobs as lawyers is the result of not doing adequate diligence. They should not have gone to a school ranked below the T18 without understanding they were taking a big risk.<br /><br />Going to a top law school and top undergrad school and ending up unemployed at age 40 or 50-something - that is the fault of the law school establishment continuing an up or out class year hiring process where only 1 in 15 hires have a long term job in a lucrative lawyer job. This is a market where a lot of lawyers are going to go from big law to jobs that in no way justify the cost and time of law school. <br /><br />The problem of very high post-big law, post-federal clerkship, post-Harvard Law cum laude unemployment and underemployment needs much more publicity from the scam movement. Who would know otherwise? Clearly, people need longer term employment information to decide whether to attend a top law school.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68381856868980259852017-02-18T07:40:21.720-07:002017-02-18T07:40:21.720-07:006:46 here. Perhaps I should clarify. The disgrac...6:46 here. Perhaps I should clarify. The disgrace is that these schools graduate 38,000 students every year knowing full well that there are only 20,000 legitimate legal jobs waiting for them. And this has been going on for a long time. Then they try to tell us that they can fit 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag due to the magic of JD advantage. It's not a matter of deserving a job, it's a matter of there not being a job, whether you are deserving or not. I believe that law schools and the ABA should do what med schools and the AMA do - keep enrollment in line with available jobs. If this were to occur, schools like Cooley wouldn't exist. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-8990319880577173272017-02-17T16:50:39.279-07:002017-02-17T16:50:39.279-07:00I agree with 6:46's first paragraph. I have ne...I agree with 6:46's first paragraph. I have never framed myself as a victim of the law-school scam. My difficulties with finding employment despite excelling at an élite law school have nothing to do with deception or corruption on the part of any law school. <br /><br />I don't fully agree with the second paragraph. Graduates do not <i>ipso facto</i> deserve jobs as lawyers. Plenty of people with law degrees should not be admitted to the legal profession. Most of them should never have been admitted to any law school, so, yes, the law-school scam bears a large share of the responsibility for their plight. But I don't see "a damned disgrace" in the failure of some Cooleyite dipshit with an LSAT score below 140 to launch a legal career. <br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84154731074652330592017-02-17T16:44:49.019-07:002017-02-17T16:44:49.019-07:00These jobs are incredibly competitive. Really anyt...These jobs are incredibly competitive. Really anything $50k+ especially in white collar/government is incredibly difficult. Truth is those are good jobs, with pay raises, benefits and job security. Everyone can also do them, no matter their physical fitness level, and while most jobs are gender neutral, realistically you're not going to see a whole lot of say female sanitation workers or ditch diggers because the jobs are physically demanding. Not so for these types of jobs, so there are thus more applicants. <br /><br />Also, while a Quinn Emmanuel attorney from a top school and with a steady work history can move into these positions when there is an open position and the timing is right, that's not going to be the case for the vast majority of graduates who will never enter Big Law in the first place, and may not have the timing even if they did to enter into one of these positions, which as you've said is currently in a hiring freeze. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-19194404898643171212017-02-17T16:44:05.305-07:002017-02-17T16:44:05.305-07:00Most of the positions that the law schools call &q...Most of the positions that the law schools call "JD-preferred" do not prefer a JD. Law graduates usually get those jobs despite the JD, not because of it.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-10110688784692056022017-02-17T12:07:55.933-07:002017-02-17T12:07:55.933-07:00For many years now, making partner in your 30s is ...For many years now, making partner in your 30s is not the magic bullet. <br /><br />With the flat volume of work in the legal profession, it is hard to generate enough revenue for the lawyer and one or two other people to stay in the partnership business. Partnerships are increasingly disappearing in spite of lawyers working like dogs. Some people recover, others less so. <br /><br />Partnerships are often very fleeting jobs, especially since at least half the lateral partners are disappointments to the firms. Same is true of more home grown partners.<br /><br />You really are in the legal profession at your peril today, and going to U of Chicago Law School after compiling a brilliant academic record is simply not enough by a long stretch to assure you a career as a lawyer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-51110896427174033392017-02-17T11:42:04.430-07:002017-02-17T11:42:04.430-07:00Going back to the points above about post-big law ...Going back to the points above about post-big law unemployment, I just learned of a major employer (not a law firm) doing mass firings of lawyers (over time, not all at once) simply because they can, and are continuing to do so. It impacts mostly lawyers well over 40 and many of the lawyers who have been working for that employer for a while.<br /><br />The lawyer job market is terrible for lawyers over 40 without portable business. There is no place to go for most fired lawyers in this age group. Some will recover or partly recover, but many won't. <br /><br />When you have this outflow of 5,000 fired young highly credentialed lawyers each year from law firmsand much less than 5,000 six figure lawyer jobs open, you have a lot of unemployed lawyers and a hundred applicants per experienced lawyer job. This corporation knows that and hence dumps all over its lawyers and throws them under the bus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-85854159649989201942017-02-17T11:30:55.531-07:002017-02-17T11:30:55.531-07:00It is a few extra courses over the BA to get the C...It is a few extra courses over the BA to get the CPA, depending on the state. You can do it at a community college at low cost.<br /><br />The other areas listed are included in the JD preferred category that law schools use for employment statistics. Since a lot of people get JD preferred jobs, they must not be all that unusual an outcome for a JD and they are clearly not rare.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-76635256976099184882017-02-17T11:16:11.589-07:002017-02-17T11:16:11.589-07:00That matches my experience as well. I graduated du...That matches my experience as well. I graduated during the crisis and got to experience the downturn first hand. In the mid 2000s a hardworking solo shitlaw guy could clear over a hundred grand a year doing DUIs, court appointed crap and divorces. It was not rocket science... <br /><br />Around 2008, it was like someone just pulled the plug. No more flood of spring break DUIs, no more construction workers fighting over child support and who gets the chevy cavalier. Even the court appointed stuff dried up. First they reduced the amounts paid per case, then a ton of attorneys flooded into it to stay afloat and then they set up a backup public defender which took 90 percent of the conflict cases and that was it. I was done. A lot of guys who had been surfing the shitlaw wave for decades folded in those years. <br /><br />It used to be that even a thoroughly shitty lawyer could pay all his bills with court appointed stuff and afford hookers and blow with whatever walked through the door. Those days are gone. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-24342251407200105652017-02-17T11:07:07.964-07:002017-02-17T11:07:07.964-07:00Your IBR will be zero if your income is below 150%...Your IBR will be zero if your income is below 150% of the poverty line. Does not have to be zero.mdf1960https://www.blogger.com/profile/05788079868613957995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91629251008597689882017-02-17T06:46:34.076-07:002017-02-17T06:46:34.076-07:00While I don’t doubt that there are some grads from...While I don’t doubt that there are some grads from elite law schools who run into employment problems 10 or 20 years into their careers, I don’t know that this is part of the law school scam per se, except perhaps, to the extent the overproduction of law school grads contributes to the problem. To me, this is more of an issue with the legal profession than law schools scamming people. I would also point out that this happens in other fields as well. I know a guy from high school who worked as an engineer for a large telecom company for nearly 30 years. He was laid off a year ago (in his early 50's with a wife and several kids) and last I heard, he was refereeing youth soccer games to pick up spare cash. Imagine that.<br /><br />To me, the law school scam is about the guy or girl who graduates from a law school (of whatever rank) up to their eyeballs in debt and can’t find a legitimate legal job. Its about other things as well, but at its core, that’s what its really about, at least to me. For every Harvard grad whose career hits the skids in his mid 40's, there are thousands of grads who will never have a legal career in the first place. And that’s a damned disgrace. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-29596205495033906332017-02-16T22:47:50.212-07:002017-02-16T22:47:50.212-07:00Trump just nominated Florida International scam De...Trump just nominated Florida International scam Dean, Alex Acosta, for the Dept of Labor. So, in case anyone still needs disabusing in re Trump...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-54865761589966467142017-02-16T17:32:17.100-07:002017-02-16T17:32:17.100-07:00I don't know that law schools were necessarily...I don't know that law schools were necessarily lying all of these years. A solo shlepper like me until 2007 was able to bring home around $75-80K yearly with less than 40 hours per week. If I worked a bit harder and didn't goof around with all of these nice women....and I never ever did anything like our Orange Grabber In Chief....never had to.... I would have made more money. The point is that most of us were fairly successful and the profession created good jobs and was recession proof. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-82469795555351014302017-02-16T17:21:37.729-07:002017-02-16T17:21:37.729-07:00That might be a swell idea. If I can get my AGI t...That might be a swell idea. If I can get my AGI to zero or below, my IBR will be zero as well. I just have to keep my LeSabre going for a few more years. You are a fountain of brilliance and sagacity---taking advantage of an oversupply of attorneys.... You are a beautiful human being.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-40073517235892438672017-02-16T15:07:16.555-07:002017-02-16T15:07:16.555-07:00The problem, Cap'n, is that lemmings look at t...The problem, Cap'n, is that lemmings look at those billboards and scoff at them, knowing THEY'RE going to be doing what the actors on Boston Legal and The Practice did.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-13771453885079906752017-02-15T23:54:14.322-07:002017-02-15T23:54:14.322-07:00Traffic ticket defense for $41.50.Traffic ticket defense for $41.50.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-28260715457287097262017-02-15T23:51:52.150-07:002017-02-15T23:51:52.150-07:00Whatever the nomenclature and its derivation, plea...Whatever the nomenclature and its derivation, please note that going to law school is correctly being compared with unprotected sex, and that a legal 'career' is now correctly likened to venereal disease. A JD is VD. This cannot be emphasized enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-65744073820107406502017-02-15T20:47:03.234-07:002017-02-15T20:47:03.234-07:00Plus, those billboards really piss me off. Like t...Plus, those billboards really piss me off. Like that damn billboard in the Great Gatsby. All of my colleagues treat clients respectfully and charge reasonable fees....these billboards tarnish my reputation....yours too Old Guy... All of us. A pox on our houses.Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-74923847142945634122017-02-15T20:41:00.746-07:002017-02-15T20:41:00.746-07:00These billboards dove tail nicely with the message...These billboards dove tail nicely with the messages here: Anybody who has half a brain and sees these things will think twice about law school. Even if they see "starting at," folks think, what a scam...who wants to go into a profession that's scammy?Captain Hruska Carswell, Continuance Kingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57980409079579002022017-02-15T12:18:08.584-07:002017-02-15T12:18:08.584-07:00You may be too young to remember when AIDS first h...You may be too young to remember when AIDS first hit the headlines. The objective was to get the feds to pay for research on a massive scale to deal with something that, once the blood supply was made safe, was always the result of individuals choosing to engage in high risk behavior. This led to the U.S. eventually spending more on AIDS research than on cancer research.<br /><br />The marketing strategy was to fool the public into thinking that AIDS would soon spread across all of the heterosexual population - which hasn't yet even begun to happen - so the disease had to look mainstream. Thus the activists made it a point to avoid the term "venereal disease" at all costs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-27663461227566425222017-02-15T12:10:36.026-07:002017-02-15T12:10:36.026-07:002:11 here. Read the fine print, if any exists. I...2:11 here. Read the fine print, if any exists. I have seen lawyers advertise in those real estate ad magazine-type flyers that they'll do any closing within a certain area for a price that undercuts everybody else.<br /><br />But that's for doing the closing. Contract review, title search, title search review, document prep, post-closing matters, etc. quickly make you pay more than the going rate. I imagine it's the same with $49.00 traffic tickets. $49.00 gets you a deal where you just pay the clerk and walk out. Want a trial, well . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-29631204784375912562017-02-15T10:37:37.971-07:002017-02-15T10:37:37.971-07:00Without the required training and licensure, a law...Without the required training and licensure, a law graduate could not work as a CPA. A law graduate could work in those other capacities, perhaps—but that doesn't mean that a JD is "preferred". Usually just the opposite is true: a JD attracts adverse attention. "Why aren't you working as a lawyer?"<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22880467553790187822017-02-15T10:26:59.463-07:002017-02-15T10:26:59.463-07:00I agree with 1:01. More than two years ago, I conc...I agree with 1:01. More than two years ago, I concluded in the article below that at most 16 law schools are worth attending—and in the comments you will see my doubts about Harvard and Yale, particularly at full price:<br /><br />http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.ca/2014/12/guest-post-by-old-guy-which-law-schools.html<br /><br />Those few jobs that pay $160k or $180k rarely last more than a few years, and the people who leave them (by choice or otherwise) are likely to move on to far less lucrative work.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.com