tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post5079889054104080912..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Response to Brian Leiter's "American Law Schools: The New Economic Realities"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger123125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-14813335004159336292014-09-28T17:30:57.633-06:002014-09-28T17:30:57.633-06:00Not true, the idea that professional organizations...Not true, the idea that professional organizations can't regulate themselves is boiler plate for all profesional organizations, save medicine and dental. These organizations will get sued, but will not even fight the charge. There was a case of optometry getting sued by a prospective school; optometry 'leaders' caved. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-13557896054738674182014-01-06T06:54:56.439-07:002014-01-06T06:54:56.439-07:00Interesting to see the old "million dollar&qu...Interesting to see the old "million dollar" valuation again. So simplistic. The average student today graudates with over $25 grand in undergrad debt. Add on another $240K for some law schools, say $120K in lost wages over a three year period, and you start off $385K behind at age 25. Even if there were a million dollars at the other end of the rainbow you'd never see it because you're behind the eight ball so early and will accrue so much interest over the life of the loan, not to mention delaying other life goals such as marriage, home ownership and having children, which are priceless to many people. <br /><br />Imagine for a moment that there is a house out there that is on sale for $1 million. Let's assume that this price is a steal, for the home's true value is $2 million once the housing market rebounds. Even if you had a guarantee that you could sell the home for $2 million 10 years from now, even if you had a willing buyer who would guarantee the sale in 10 years, it is beyond the grasp of most people to buy this house even at half price. They cannot make the payments. <br /><br />Even if it were a guaranteed million, it's not an attainable goal for most people. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-31726410749998315422014-01-05T23:54:47.610-07:002014-01-05T23:54:47.610-07:00They do seem to have lots of cash to throw around,...They do seem to have lots of cash to throw around, don't they.<br /><br />That's what attracts many students to the scam. They sense there's lots of money to be made by joining the scam, but they don't realize that the money comes from their own debt-funded tuition. And it goes to deans and professors, not to the other 99% of law school graduates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91831810952425965072014-01-05T22:54:53.928-07:002014-01-05T22:54:53.928-07:00But, er, um, Campos isn't a true scholar!But, er, um, Campos isn't a true scholar!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-16585538428066796542014-01-05T15:16:45.056-07:002014-01-05T15:16:45.056-07:00Who the heck cares? He probably has less hair tha...Who the heck cares? He probably has less hair than average too (although still more than Leiter.) So what? <br /><br />What is germane is that his analysis of the Law School Scam was correct and that he took a brave and public stand on the issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-35356030910747547872014-01-05T13:53:47.014-07:002014-01-05T13:53:47.014-07:00"But the easiest way to marginalize yourself ..."But the easiest way to marginalize yourself is to single out people unfairly for repeated attack or make over-the-top claims based on little or no evidence. If you avoid those pitfalls, you'll have a lot more influence than if you don't."<br /><br />If only we lived in a world where this was remotely true. Sooner or later the law school reform movement will result in profs and admins being in a position of having to defend themselves in the political arena. The last 40 years of American history seems like fairly solid evidence that such unsightly tactics are highly effective in politics. This is basically just an argument to allow law schools to control the narrative. In other words, "engage us on our terms and maybe we'll deign to consider your arguments."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-65110697476713796012014-01-05T09:11:24.158-07:002014-01-05T09:11:24.158-07:00I think the point was "below average" fo...I think the point was "below average" for the school. Click on the detailed data. Campos is way below average for his school's scores.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-61315926891523113252014-01-05T07:16:19.876-07:002014-01-05T07:16:19.876-07:00Re: Leiter and no offense.
The argument gets a li...Re: Leiter and no offense.<br /><br />The argument gets a little thin when it is about first tier reality, since upper tier grads fare better than the lower ranked school alums.<br /><br />So Leiter is likely most critical of the scambloggers that have all the advantages in that they are from the top schools and have the best opportunities and the most versatile credentials.<br /><br />Who wants to listen to a collective Ivy league bitch and moan? Not Leiter is my guess.<br /><br />On the other hand, if things are really as bad as the Ivy League scambloggers say they are, then there really is no room at the top and certainly not at the bottom, and so a lot of lower tier schools should be closed down ASAP as one commenter has often advocated for.<br /><br />Stop the bleeding in other words, and restore law to the elite profession that it formerly was and based on high academic achievement. Higher LSAT scores, higher GPA's in difficult majors like hard sciences or math or business etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-44147606404781680172014-01-05T04:17:49.104-07:002014-01-05T04:17:49.104-07:002:03pm, sure, I hope for the best but if professor...2:03pm, sure, I hope for the best but if professors don't start to participate in reform, it's not as if we'll give up the fight and disappear. We'll still force reform through stopping the inflow of new students/money. Reform will happen.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10157020541840080308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-41349791604715738892014-01-05T00:52:16.774-07:002014-01-05T00:52:16.774-07:00Unfortunately, I don't think Northwestern Law ...Unfortunately, I don't think Northwestern Law School is going to close its doors. And let me point out that they reduced the size of their incoming class well before Harvard and Columbia were forced to do the same. That showed, at the very least, glimpses of conscience and responsibility on their part. <br /><br />I do think, however, that there will be few if any JDs from Northwestern--or Michigan, Virginia or even Chicago--who get hired as law professors in the future. If you want to see some retribution against these impostors, then hope they get kicked where it hurts--in their academic pretensions. The world will be a much better place when law professors realize that their job is to train attorneys, not bogus "scholars" like themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-88546464323606479592014-01-05T00:36:34.850-07:002014-01-05T00:36:34.850-07:00Based on that quote from Orin Kerr, I must conclud...Based on that quote from Orin Kerr, I must conclude that Leiter has thoroughly marginalized himself by singling out dybbuk for unfair, dishonest, and repeated attack. In addition, no one in this thread has singled out Leiter for anything. He's the one who wrote the original HuffPost piece going after the scambloggers.<br /><br />It's all right to respond to vicious personal attacks from professors, anywhere and anytime. Some law professors have carved out little empires for themselves where students are fair game and forbidden to defend themselves. Well, school's out for the scambloggers, and this is not a law school classroom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-40083975186600262232014-01-04T23:26:48.144-07:002014-01-04T23:26:48.144-07:00Jesus, that's sooo perfect!
"The people ...Jesus, that's sooo perfect!<br /><br />"The people running these schools are all glib scum. They will keep harping that everything is OK – like drug dealers, they need to find buyers for their product. And, like drug dealers, they don’t care whether the consumer will be much, much worse off in the long run – they merely want the sale."<br /><br />I mean, not just everyday, ordinary scum. Glib Scum.<br /><br />That's a whole new level of scuminess. Epic.<br /><br />"They merely want the sale."<br /><br />Damn Skippy nigga!! Mo' MONEY!!<br /><br />Sorry, got carried away there...<br /><br />The analogy to pushers is entirely accurate. Only it's far more dangerous. Education Debt, especially law school debt, is like LSD on steroids. The 'bad trip' lasts a lifetime.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11722793746981305932014-01-04T22:39:53.512-07:002014-01-04T22:39:53.512-07:00The law schools have done what almost any organiza...The law schools have done what almost any organizations (or individuals) will do given too much money and not enough regulation. Its reprehensible, but its also human nature. It don't think they can make the drastic sacrifices necessary to reign in their excesses. Human nature again. <br /><br />The ABA is incapable for several reasons of properly regulating them. Meanwhile the flow of suckers willing to sign on for law school, although reduced, is still sufficient to keep them running. What will stop it is when the federal government becomes unwilling to keep loaning huge amounts to law students. This unfortunately looks like it won't happen for a while, but this is the weak link which will bring the scam undone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84561702310825683072014-01-04T20:25:19.474-07:002014-01-04T20:25:19.474-07:00Great comment from the WSJ:
"$100,000 is a j...Great comment from the WSJ:<br /><br />"$100,000 is a joke. Most law school grads have $150,000-200,000+ in law school loans that they can’t discharge in bankruptcy. Law schools induce students to buy worthless JDs by lying and misleading about job and salary statistics. The behavior of law schools is fraudulent and illegal. You can’t get away with the marketing tactics of the education industry when you’re selling stocks and education is allegedly an investment, correct?<br /><br />I think any kid with two brain cells to rub together is steering clear of buying a law degree. JDs are worthless for the vast majority of graduates. Law professors are grossly overpaid (in addition to law deans like the fine scholar Mr. Rodriguez).<br /><br />Law schools will lie to prospective students and say anything to get students to sign up for federal loans. The entire scheme is a loan origination business model. The education is essentially worthless (read cases for three years and have a professor question you aggressively about them) and not even worth one-tenth of what these thieves charge. If you’re thinking about law school, do some more research and figure out what you want to do with your life."<br /><br />And another one:<br /><br />"The people running these schools are all glib scum. They will keep harping that everything is OK – like drug dealers, they need to find buyers for their product. And, like drug dealers, they don’t care whether the consumer will be much, much worse off in the long run – they merely want the sale. Everyone thinks they’re immune – I sincerely hope Northwestern Law School has to close its doors and I hope that karma throws Mr Rodriguez a curveball (made out of iron)."<br /><br />http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/01/02/law-2014-paring-back-at-u-s-law-schools-continues/tab/comments/<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62548632025575972742014-01-04T20:00:41.536-07:002014-01-04T20:00:41.536-07:00Excellent post that explains WHY law schools wreck...Excellent post that explains WHY law schools wreck innocent lives - which is because THEY CAN.<br /><br /> But it implicitly raises the moral question that also hovers behind Charles Cooper's question about why more professors haven't spoken up, which is HOW CAN THOSE EVIL FUCKERS LIVE WITH THEMSELVES?<br /><br />Or to put it another way, what degree of arrogance, self-righteousness, greed, dishonesty and outright hatred exists inside law professors that allows them to willingly destroy young people's lives?<br /><br />And the answer scamblogs provide is that we don't know, but we are doing everything we can to expose what they doing in an effort to discourage young people from going to law school, to get the general public to understand what's going on and to perhaps, just perhaps, shame some of the sociopaths into working to change the system.<br /><br />Scamblogs = speaking truth to power. Which is why privileged reactionaries like Leiter hate them so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-69739302947940455892014-01-04T16:41:20.766-07:002014-01-04T16:41:20.766-07:00Anon at 1:28, I didn't write the letter. But ...Anon at 1:28, I didn't write the letter. But I suspect that the authors were treating the letter like an amicus brief. When you file an amicus brief, it's much better to have a small number of known people sign than to have a large number of unknown people sign. If a few people sign, then the clerks and judges are likely to notice who has signed the brief; if serious people signed the brief, the brief will be taken more seriously. If lots of people sign the brief, no one will notice who signed the brief and it will just be known as the brief that lots of unknown people signed. You may be right that it would have been better for the authors to take a different approach here, as this wasn't an amicus brief. But that was their decision, anyway.Orin Kerrhttp://volokh.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-76995152530244445532014-01-04T16:17:54.768-07:002014-01-04T16:17:54.768-07:00Yes, he probably destroys that too.Yes, he probably destroys that too.Bathsheba Boldwoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-21752900504785279782014-01-04T15:03:21.120-07:002014-01-04T15:03:21.120-07:00Let me ask you a question Charles. Lets put on ou...Let me ask you a question Charles. Lets put on our reality cap. Do you really think Profs are going to do anything but give lip service the the concerns of the Scamblogs? Really? Why would they do ANYTHING that would upset the applecart? I mean I appreciate the "mature" perspective you bring to this discussion, but it is simply unrealistic on your part to think the schools are going to do anything to change anything. The only way things are actually going to change is when there are far so few bodies to fill their seats that the higher ranked schools will be looking at a deficit instead of a profit. Then they will have no choice but to do something to entice students into their seats. The lower ranked schools have no power to do anything. Their business models are in the throes of failure and they are going to go by the wayside sooner or later, soon as students realize that just because they got into law school with a 140 LSAT does not mean they are going to have a job when they get out, or even pass the bar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-23128237042996868192014-01-04T14:55:03.579-07:002014-01-04T14:55:03.579-07:00Less is more? Not in this case.
But the letter w...Less is more? Not in this case.<br /><br />But the letter was a step in the right direction. Do you have any information about any future steps that are being planned in secret?<br /><br />If the legal academy wants change, why must it take so long to get consensus? Must be like herding cats. Old cats.<br /><br />Are the younger, newer profs (a) more or less concerned than the tenured folk, and (b) more able to leverage modern technology to speed the process up?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10157020541840080308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-87418517729634876032014-01-04T14:52:40.041-07:002014-01-04T14:52:40.041-07:006:22,
On a scale from 1-6, a 3.5 is an average sc...6:22,<br /><br />On a scale from 1-6, a 3.5 is an average score. Campos's numbers are not "consistently below" this average. Not that this petty nonsense should matter, but I have noticed that you (whomever you may be?!) have been obsessed with his teaching reviews ever since he started ITLSS.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-70648240354032689792014-01-04T14:28:02.410-07:002014-01-04T14:28:02.410-07:00So...you created a "coalition of concerned co...So...you created a "coalition of concerned colleagues" designed to affect public change with a national body and you kept it hush-hush and limited who could play?<br /><br />Jesus Christ, remind me never to hire law professors to do anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-52168624142408558442014-01-04T13:48:19.629-07:002014-01-04T13:48:19.629-07:00Prof. Kerr,
Have you considered creating a simila...Prof. Kerr,<br /><br />Have you considered creating a similar letter and seeing how many in legal academia will attach their name to it? (I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, as I do appreciate the serious attention that you've given to this issue/movement).<br /><br />That said, Brian Leiter is a self-interested and self-obsessed scumbag. Why can't we all just admit this? Are those in academia afraid of him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-61747443365183302402014-01-04T13:27:22.453-07:002014-01-04T13:27:22.453-07:00If you want to be sick, head to Midtown Manhattan ...If you want to be sick, head to Midtown Manhattan where the law professors are blowing through student cash holding their annual gabfest in one of the most expensive cities in the world. BoredJDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-84912626742013590552014-01-04T13:00:50.902-07:002014-01-04T13:00:50.902-07:00Regarding: "I also think this dynamic points ...Regarding: "I also think this dynamic points to why it's important for scambloggers to avoid silly personal attacks and to drop the occasional sexist shtick. At its best, scam-blogging is having a real influence -- not just on students, but on faculty. But the easiest way to marginalize yourself is to single out people unfairly for repeated attack or make over-the-top claims based on little or no evidence. " (Prof.Kerr, above)<br /><br />I have just a moment so the only thing I can say is: "Whoever who has ears, let them hear."Imagining The Open Toadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-46733647967862684552014-01-04T13:00:07.152-07:002014-01-04T13:00:07.152-07:00Yes. Orin's response downthread that scamblog...Yes. Orin's response downthread that scambloggers need to water down their criticism to appeal to potential faculty sympathizers is so much nonsense. <br /><br />Even accepting that the den of thieves that is the legal academy contains a few honest or somewhat honest souls, they are not going to be the ones who change a system that pays off so well for them. <br /><br />And if lawprofs do not like to be called lizards, roaches, and pigs, maybe they should stop behaving as such. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com