tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post4062278863700017125..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: Ontario rejects proposal for new law schoolUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-66568949374356521762018-12-17T09:23:41.198-07:002018-12-17T09:23:41.198-07:00The battle against the scam makes makes Sisyphus&#...The battle against the scam makes makes Sisyphus' task looks easy, for oe simple reason: most don't listen. There's no reason, at all, law school enrollment ought to be increasing, but increase it has:<br />http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/slight_increase_for_law_school_enrollment_according_to_new_509_report_data<br />And student debt? Well, yeah, that's way up too:<br />https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/student-loan-debt-sets-record-doubling-since-recession/ar-BBR4tBl?li=BBnbfcN<br />There are few, very very few, who will listen to-or even consider-the advice given here. But for those few, it's life saving advice.<br />It's understandable Nando and the others closed up shop; mixing my mythical metaphors, fighting the scam is like cursing the darkness or ordering the tides to roll back. But it is noble work, and some are saved, while the many won't listen. So fight as long as you can; it's a worthy cause.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-19595331808416391222018-12-15T20:48:05.501-07:002018-12-15T20:48:05.501-07:00Just as in the days of Brown vs. Board of Educatio...Just as in the days of Brown vs. Board of Education, as for black and white schools, today there are two job markets. One is for people over the age 55 or so, who are mostly left in the temporary job market or with low paying smaller law firms. The other, lucrative job market is for the younger people.<br /><br />Since legal jobs do not typically last a lifetime, many lawyers age 60 or so find themselves on an endless train of look for job for a long time, finally get job, job ends because it was temporary or unstable in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-1474048444541544562018-12-14T21:44:29.398-07:002018-12-14T21:44:29.398-07:00The whole point of this blog is that it is so diff...The whole point of this blog is that it is so difficult to make a living as a lawyer. It is not that Old Guy is not making a living - he is. The issue is the quality and stability of the legal jobs he is getting after an elite law degree and a federal clerkship. The jobs are temporary or are unstable. Even taking a high salary of $180,000, the salary is not all that high if the lawyer has to spend half of his working hours on a job search and can only work the other half of the time. In New York City, a 22 year teacher earns $120,000 plus a pension plan, free health insurance for the employee and his family and retiree medical paid for by the City, for life after he retires. The public school teacher earns much higher compensation than a 50 year old lawyer who has lost his or her job is going to get anywhere.<br /><br />Could Old Guy make $120,000? Yes, but his jobs are so unstable that he cannot count on any job or any income from being a lawyer.<br /><br />A big part of the problem is that the hiring is mostly of young people. An old lawyer needs to be a specialist in an area where the lawyer is somewhat known to get a job. it is like a club based on being around for a while. That is hard to do when you went to law school late, as Old Guy did and have had only a few years in law practice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-52277741342485245372018-12-14T09:27:16.151-07:002018-12-14T09:27:16.151-07:00So Mr. Ellipsis is back, valiantly defending the f...So Mr. Ellipsis is back, valiantly defending the fraud that is law school. If you're such a smashing success, and all your lawyer friends are such smashing successes, why are you bothering to show up here? Aren't you too busy saving (fill in the blank) while still making millions on the side? The reality is you're not a lawyer, and the only lawyers you know are on TV shows.<br />The scamsters have money, power, authority, societal respect, paid lobbyists, a massive national organization(actually organizations-the ABA, AALS,), marketing consultants, etc-all the things that ill-gotten gains can buy. They're the Mob with good plastic surgery.<br />This blog has nothing but words and the truth-that's it.<br />So what compels you to visit, with your fractured grammar, to spew the scam creed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-41260388957623730242018-12-14T09:21:06.668-07:002018-12-14T09:21:06.668-07:00While I agree with the above, it should be noted t...While I agree with the above, it should be noted that age discrimination can be pretty crude. I've been asked "how much longer do you plan to keep working" and "how old are your children" and "do you have any grandchildren" and the like. All these questions are arguably actionable, but what's the point? It's a hopeless battle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-77355182996811670342018-12-14T00:29:23.579-07:002018-12-14T00:29:23.579-07:00Exactly: the problem of discrimination is handled ...Exactly: the problem of discrimination is handled on an individual basis (each employer), even though it is obviously societal in nature. Treating it as millions of isolated cases rather than as a uniform problem only perpetuates it.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-55966178664641040422018-12-13T21:53:52.235-07:002018-12-13T21:53:52.235-07:00The problem has a flip side of older lawyers with ...The problem has a flip side of older lawyers with extremely elite degrees finding those degrees have no economic value when the lawyer turns 50 and has a job loss. Experience limits are omnipresent in open legal jobs. The anti-discrimination laws apply on an employer-by-employer basis. In some markets, 80% or more of the open legal jobs in a given area will be for lawyers with less than 6 years of experience. That presents a real ethical issue because people are being run through legal jobs and pushed out, like Mr. Kleber, with little possibility of getting a new job. Harvard or Yale do not matter here. Being inexperienced, but actually having at least one year of relevant experience, is the most important factor in the legal job market right now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-6881944840419136592018-12-13T07:22:32.277-07:002018-12-13T07:22:32.277-07:00You're almost there. It isn't exactly age...You're almost there. It isn't exactly age discrimination, it's corporate discrimination. They want people in their first job as associates or someone in their second job with a prior law firm job, and for the reason you state, the youngun's will work un-Godly hours, the oldsters were bred on reasonable hours and a mother hen HR department. All generalizations and stereotypes are by their nature unfair, but they often arise from a kernel of truth. The truths of ex-corporate animals are: <br /><br />1. I have witnessed in-house lawyers going over to law firms and balking at the working hours. I once second chaired the defense in an age discrimination trial brought by some in-house lawyers. One felt that having once in his career worked a whole weekend to get the annual report out damned near qualified him as a martyr. I had been working whole weekends for weeks getting ready for the trial (which we won).<br /><br />2. People who are used to a corporate structure see themselves as lateral hires. If they were a manager or director of something or another they expect to start in a law firm at a similar level rather than take their place on the treadmill with the new graduates because they, too, in point of fact are new graduates if they never worked in a private practice environment before.<br /><br />But whether what goes on every day is right or wrong, you make the point well. No one cares about your problem. The government hasn't got the resources. Private lawyers used to make a killing on age cases but the defense lawyers, as happened in med malpractice, developed better strategies making contingent fees too risky in a lot of cases.<br /><br />All anyone can do is try to spread the word to people looking for a lucrative second career in the law that it is a bad idea. I think you will have better luck with them than with undergrad lemmings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-10664149464082692942018-12-12T19:01:14.591-07:002018-12-12T19:01:14.591-07:00I don't know who you are or what you wrote, bu...I don't know who you are or what you wrote, but I don't believe that it was I who rejected your comments. You would have no way to know which of the many people who run this site approved or declined any particular comment, so your allegation against me is groundless.<br /><br />We do have to monitor comments. If we did not, there would be dozens or hundreds of pieces of spam for every legitimate comment, and the site would be unusable. Almost all comments that are not spam are approved for publication. We do block a few that, like the above, consist of nothing but personal attacks or other rubbish. If your two prior "opinions" were of a similar nature to your latest comment, I am not surprised that they were blocked.Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-59669840750785794992018-12-12T12:13:54.615-07:002018-12-12T12:13:54.615-07:00Well I have posted two opinions here and Old guy.....Well I have posted two opinions here and Old guy...you obviously have refused to publish them. I guess you are not much of a believer in Freedom of thought or freedom of speech, eh? You just can't seem to stand the thought of those not agreeing with you...so since this won't be published, let me simply state that as a lawyer and knowing a number of lawyers...all of those who want to be working...if but for themselves, are managing to make a living. Why can't you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-59377729690911542512018-12-12T09:25:55.366-07:002018-12-12T09:25:55.366-07:00We're all offering all sorts of advice to OG, ...We're all offering all sorts of advice to OG, so I'll give my two cents', as I suspect that he and I are very close in age.<br />1. Yes, if you've got a math/science background, you can get a job as a teacher. However, all jds require that teachers be licensed, which means that you've got to get that teaching certificate. Some districts are so desperate for teachers that they have programs where they'll hire you and then give you the training-but again, only for math/science/some foreign language/special ed, and only for preliminary certification. And keep in mind that in order to get a permanent teacher's license, you'll need a master's degree in most states. So it's a lot of time and a lot of money; I know people who have done it at my age-retired from other jobs, etc-and I admire their dedication. Which brings me to<br />2. Do you really want to be a teacher? A good teacher? We've got plenty of lousy teachers, and some fabulous ones-I've decided it takes a special person to be a good teacher. And it begins with...do you want to be a teacher, and try to deal with teenagers/adolescents/toddlers all day? And then deal with their parents? It takes a dedicated person to be a good teacher, and as noted in #1, it takes time and money. Not an easy decision when you're over 50.<br /><br />Regarding age discrimination, in the law it is rampant. As pointed out above, most firms want younger lawyers, if only because they believe they can work them harder and get more out of them-with no pushback oldsters might give.<br />And here's the reality: an acquaintance is an attorney with fed EEOC. I went complaining to him, and he told me that they have so many egregious race/sex harassment cases(in other words, cases with jury appeal) that his office doesn't even consider age discrimination cases. And private counsel? Well, I have spoken with several-and they would take the case if somehow it morphed into a class action. Not sure how to do that...take out an ad in the bar journal?<br />So yes, age discrimination exists...but good luck fighting it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-2556072849787937092018-12-12T05:57:57.854-07:002018-12-12T05:57:57.854-07:00@ Anonymous Dec 11th, 11:11 -
You got that right ...@ Anonymous Dec 11th, 11:11 - <br />You got that right - experience caps are common.<br /><br />In fact....<br /><br />There's a lawsuit pending right now where a veteran lawyer is suing under the theory that this constitutes age discrimination. If THIS guy cannot find a job, imagine the hordes of lemmings who cannot:<br /><br />"Overqualified? Or too old? Age discrimination case takes aim at biased recruiting practices."<br />https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-age-discrimination-lawsuit-dale-kleber-0930-story.html<br /><br />Here are some bullet points<br /><br />* Dale Kleber, a veteran lawyer, had been unemployed and job hunting for three years when he came across a position that seemed promising, but for this part of the ad: “3 to 7 years (no more than 7 years) of relevant legal experience,” it said.<br /><br />* Kleber, 58 at the time, had decades of experience, including as general counsel at Dean Foods and, most recently, as CEO of a dairy products trade group. But his efforts to land a new job at that level had been unsuccessful, and he didn’t want to draw down his retirement accounts to make ends meet.<br /><br />* Eventually Kleber sued, claiming the seven-year experience cap discriminated against older applicants.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09402910331845325545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-56056624994806494462018-12-11T20:34:07.625-07:002018-12-11T20:34:07.625-07:00The dilemma of the unemployed late middle aged per...The dilemma of the unemployed late middle aged person who lacks the latest in demand skills is a societal problem. A problem which is not taken very seriously and gets little attention.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-60944574425094395732018-12-11T20:08:39.032-07:002018-12-11T20:08:39.032-07:00Maybe try for jobs that relate to your STEM experi...Maybe try for jobs that relate to your STEM experience Old Guy. If you put a brief description of that experience, it may be helpful . For example, if you have bio tech or pharma experience, many corporations would be interested. Same with infrastructure or aeronautical engineering. Maybe focus on those who work in or represent your prior industry. As long as you are not yet 65, you should be in the running for jobs that want people who understand your area of expertise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-431819811591231202018-12-11T11:11:13.986-07:002018-12-11T11:11:13.986-07:00A big issue faced by Old Guy is experience limits ...A big issue faced by Old Guy is experience limits as a job qualification in law. An employer can legitimately say that they are looking for a midlevel associate with 2-4 years of experience and exclude someone who worked for 20 years before law school based on that non-legal experience. The employer is looking for a relatively green employee. Unfortunately, in an oversaturated profession like law, experience limits have a dire effect on the employment opportunities of older people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-76453492560249608002018-12-11T02:08:25.314-07:002018-12-11T02:08:25.314-07:00I list on my résumé only my few years in law, not ...I list on my résumé only my few years in law, not my thirty-odd years of experience in a range of fields. I also don't list my dates of graduation.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-65689785779684631112018-12-11T02:06:18.558-07:002018-12-11T02:06:18.558-07:00I know quite enough mathematics to teach the subje...I know quite enough mathematics to teach the subject even at the university level, tomorrow morning if necessary. But I could not get a teaching position. In university, a high and relatively recent degree in the subject is required; below that, a teaching license, which apparently doesn't require much knowledge of math but does require a whole slate of candy-ass courses on drug abuse and the like. It would take me a few years to become certified as a teacher. And then would I find work?<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-10014568029223517032018-12-10T20:46:29.343-07:002018-12-10T20:46:29.343-07:00Either you go back to STEM, Old Guy, maybe with ne...Either you go back to STEM, Old Guy, maybe with new training. For example, Microsoft and universities have almost free certificates in various areas of computer science that you could take online. Maybe that would help.<br /><br />Alternately, if you are only out of law school five or fewer years, maybe you have had a bad stretch of jobs. Maybe you could get an in house job that turns out to be long term. On the positive side, you have been able to land a number of jobs.<br /><br />It may be better to list the attorney jobs after your clerkship as short-term work, so it does not look like so many jobs in such a short period of time, and to describe the areas where you have developed expertise. Maybe take off your year of college graduation and just describe in general terms your stem career saying something like "Worked as a software engineer before attending law school."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22039003112306310392018-12-10T19:02:02.051-07:002018-12-10T19:02:02.051-07:00Well then they are free to apply.Well then they are free to apply.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-62396348631860617832018-12-10T16:08:40.000-07:002018-12-10T16:08:40.000-07:00One of the reasons I became a lawyer is that if yo...One of the reasons I became a lawyer is that if you don't make it to medical school, science and math are utterly worthless. As bad as law is, STEM is typically worse outside of electrical and mechanical engineering and newer tech, but tech can be a major issue because it's constantly changing and has similar or worse long term problems for most. <br /><br />Medicine, finance and accounting are the best fields long term. Medicine costs too much to start and delays life by too much. Better to do the other two.<br /><br />I would recommend avoiding STEM in general. It's oversaturated, the same way law and teaching are. Most of this stuff is luck, if you don't have connections you have to luck into a not in demand field, get hired and establish yourself, and then when it gets hot you take off with it. But nobody can predict that. If the fields are matured then it's cutthroat to get in and make money because the old guard already took the spots and will give them to their children if they at all can (and any rational human being is going to do that, cries of nepotism be damned, no decent parent is going to fuck over their own children for the benefit of some strangers). Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-19428267887608207282018-12-10T14:45:58.747-07:002018-12-10T14:45:58.747-07:008:30 PM . That is the stupidest comment. Most law...8:30 PM . That is the stupidest comment. Most lawyers can easily teach at the elementary or junior high level. At the high school level, there are a lot of lawyers who did well in math and science and could teach if they refreshed their knowledge of the subject matter.<br /><br />Commenters on this blog assume incorrectly that most lawyers are terrible math and science students. My cohort has mostly lawyers who are excellent at math and science.<br /><br />Maybe toileteers are bad at math and science, but their reading and writing skills are often equally bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-80366150066472371392018-12-09T20:30:25.173-07:002018-12-09T20:30:25.173-07:00The highest demand for teachers is for math and sc...The highest demand for teachers is for math and science. Most lawyers do not have the background to be hired as math or science teachers. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-41779332070141520082018-12-09T14:30:57.394-07:002018-12-09T14:30:57.394-07:00I should have known better. There may have been a ...I should have known better. There may have been a way for me to find out about the prevalence—the near ubiquity—of age-based discrimination in the legal profession. I obviously did not know enough. <br /><br />My career in STEM was already over, for similar reasons. But law was a bad idea. Yet it at least seemed plausible that I would have a good legal career. That cannot be said of the thousands of toileteers.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-44048262799771132162018-12-09T11:03:47.214-07:002018-12-09T11:03:47.214-07:00A very relevant economic comparison would be what ...A very relevant economic comparison would be what the prospective lawyer could earn as a public school teacher in the area where the person lives. Where I live, public school teachers are handsomely paid with incredible health and retirement benefits. It is very hard for lawyers to meet or beat that compensation after 15 or more years as a teacher, since teacher pay goes up with experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-70559127175983606342018-12-09T08:03:15.799-07:002018-12-09T08:03:15.799-07:00With respect to posters, there is a difference bet...With respect to posters, there is a difference between those who went to law school before the scam was publicized and those who went after. Those who went after only have themselves to blame. Many of these people scored poorly on the LSAT because they do not read often, including reading this blog and the others that were out there. People who are intentional screw ups do not like to remind themselves of their folly,<br /><br />The people who went to law school before the scam was known are outraged. They gave up other options, as in Old Guy's case a career in STEM, for a very poor legal career. For many other lawyers who graduated with elite records, went to elite jobs and found themselves hopelessly unemployed or underemployed, the scam really burns.<br /><br />The elites are going to find their way to this blog. The law schools telling them the scam does not affect [name an elite law school} was a lie. The scam affects huge numbers of lawyers from every US law school, but may take its nasty effect later on in a career than for the non-elites.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com