tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post3396757531306365288..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: The Solo Path (Update)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-12930529665594503552014-04-14T08:41:53.817-06:002014-04-14T08:41:53.817-06:00Monsanto funds a lecture at Valpo? No doubt on env...Monsanto funds a lecture at Valpo? No doubt on environmental law.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-76942442869539616072014-04-14T06:16:00.537-06:002014-04-14T06:16:00.537-06:00I watched the video, 6:08, and to be fair I think ...I watched the video, 6:08, and to be fair I think what the Dean was saying was that there are tons of people out there who cannot get justice because they cannot afford to hire a lawyer, and that if there was a way to pay lawyers to help everyone there would be a huge shortage of lawyers. I tend to agree with that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-25326971894509243752014-04-14T05:10:55.486-06:002014-04-14T05:10:55.486-06:006:46, I was involved in politics for many, many ye...6:46, I was involved in politics for many, many years and I am here to tell you that the only way you will ever get anything out of a politician is by forking over the green stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57935565016571469232014-04-14T04:31:07.642-06:002014-04-14T04:31:07.642-06:00Hmmmm....I've got to say, LSTC, that I never k...Hmmmm....I've got to say, LSTC, that I never know if you're being serious or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68273802731233139202014-04-14T04:28:03.691-06:002014-04-14T04:28:03.691-06:00Leiter published a similar whopper within the last...Leiter published a similar whopper within the last few months, and obviously doesn't realize it. A well-informed source tells me it's going to explode in Leiter's impeccably groomed face any day now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-90418864649782386282014-04-13T12:07:53.434-06:002014-04-13T12:07:53.434-06:00Almost no one from NYU went solo directly from law...Almost no one from NYU went solo directly from law school in 2013. Cannot tell if anyone did document review, but the number has to be very small, if any. <br /><br />There were almost no solos from the T5 in 2013, according to the ABA, and it is unlikely that any new NYU Law graduate did doc review.<br /><br />Some people go solo with some experience - a little different. Some people also take high level doc review jobs at large firms at a high salary. Again different from what you are referring to. <br /><br />I think doc review or solo right out of NYU is rare. I also think NYU may have a contingent of wealthy women students who are never going to big law and some of whom may show up as law school funded or a like category. That 2% will skew the apparent "bad outcomes" up when they are not bad outcomes for the women involved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-71596984647123638262014-04-13T11:57:03.200-06:002014-04-13T11:57:03.200-06:00should have just left it alone after the first two...should have just left it alone after the first two lines.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-48509689184957323762014-04-13T10:42:46.602-06:002014-04-13T10:42:46.602-06:00Long time ago.
Just to answer the comment above...Long time ago. <br /><br />Just to answer the comment above about law school funded jobs, in my law school class, with few women, there was a contingent of women, none right out of college, that were not going to go to big law. There were women who already lived in what would be today multimillion dollar residences, and women whose spouses had elite jobs. The were women in the real designer clothes (custom and not ready-made) and women and some men from wealthy family. There were just some women who did not want big law. Many of these would have been happy with a law school funded job, if there was one then. Money was not a consideration. They had kids or wanted kids. They wanted a job, but not so much of a job to go to a big law firm or any law firm for that matter. These people ended up at non-profits, in a family business or some not working at all from what I can tell.<br /><br />The point is for top schools in major cities, and it may be hard to believe this, there are people going for the law degree who never intend to go into private practice and do not need to or intend to live on what they make as a lawyer, if it is anything like the past. Yes, they have enough money to not have to borrow in a way that their debt is known by the law school in order to attend. You need to look at the numbers and realize there is a percentage in the poor employment statistics that does not reflect the failing of the law school, but rather the very different expectations of the rich from getting a prestigious law degree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-83672870991910666682014-04-13T08:49:29.455-06:002014-04-13T08:49:29.455-06:00This generation is the first generation to be burd...This generation is the first generation to be burdened with the ball and chain of NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt.<br /><br />And it's NON-DISCHARGEABLE debt that has turned law school from a possibly wasted 3 years scam into a life-destroying scam from hundreds of thousands of people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-43386713858697450232014-04-13T08:31:06.028-06:002014-04-13T08:31:06.028-06:00And then stay on campus to get an LLM in Buzzword ...And then stay on campus to get an LLM in Buzzword Law.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-7258859774879966312014-04-13T07:08:26.452-06:002014-04-13T07:08:26.452-06:00"Honestly, I wish law school had not worked o..."Honestly, I wish law school had not worked out for me. Turned out to be the wrong career for many reasons, but mostly because the experienced job market for lawyers and the job stability for lawyers are both awful today."<br /><br />That's odd because the Dean of Yale Law Schools said there is a "drastic undersupply of lawyers":<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWskffWYKmo<br /><br />@ 1:30Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-42415259636078576182014-04-13T06:55:00.161-06:002014-04-13T06:55:00.161-06:00responding to 6:07
1) there are many more lower r...responding to 6:07<br /><br />1) there are many more lower ranked schools today than a couple of decades ago<br />2) things may always have been bad for grads from the bottom, but they have certainly gotten worseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-72340625728433700132014-04-13T06:19:15.058-06:002014-04-13T06:19:15.058-06:00Subject: Valparaiso Law April E-Newsletter
Dear __...Subject: Valparaiso Law April E-Newsletter<br />Dear ____,<br /><br />The academic year is winding down, and it’s been fun to see the current 1Ls come full-circle from slightly overwhelmed in fall, to confident students in the spring. Two weeks ago, 1Ls interested in being on Law Review submitted their case comments for judging, and they are now waiting to hear who will be members next year. This week, tryouts for our student advocacy groups (Trial Advocacy, Moot Court, and International Moot Court) are being held. Students are required to give oral arguments in front of current group members to test their advocacy skills. Being a member of either Law Review or an advocacy team gives students valuable writing and research experience, and they are a great asset to your legal resume.<br /><br />Keep in mind that the application deadline of June 1 is quickly approaching. I hope you’re in the process of applying, and if you have any questions or concerns, I’m more than happy to help. I can be reached at ... or (219)465-7821.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Adam<br /><br />Running & Fitness Club to Host 5K<br /> <br />The Law School’s Running & Fitness Club is hosting the Ambulance Chase 5k Fun Run on April 12, beginning at the University’s Athletics and Recreation Center. In past years, the race has drawn about 75-100 runners, and even more are expected this year—students, alumni, local attorneys, as well as the general public participate. An ambulance will actually follow and “chase” the runners. All proceeds will go to the Crisis Center in Gary, Indiana. <br /><br />Law School Students, Staff, and Faculty Participate in Diversity Presentation<br /><br />On March 24, the Law School hosted Verna Myers, of Verna Myers Consulting Group, to speak to students, staff, and faculty about diversity and its effect on business relationships. Myers is a nationally recognized expert on diversity issues within law firms, and her presentation, What if I say the wrong thing? Becoming a Culturally Effective Professional, provided an interactive discussion about how diversity does not necessarily mean inclusion. “Diversity is being invited to the party. Inclusion is being asked to dance,” said Myers. More than 300 Law School students, staff, and faculty attended the event. <br /><br />... <br /><br />Monsanto Lecture<br /><br />The annual Monsanto Lecture was held on April 10. Associate Dean Ellen Smith Pryor of the University of North Texas Dallas School of Law presented Teaching Torts in the 21st Century. The legal landscape in the early part of the 21st century reflects fundamental changes in tort lawyering, legal education, and the legal marketplace. Tort reform has drastically limited broad swaths of traditional plaintiff’s practice, while insurer-funded defense work has also changed dramatically... The Lecture addressed the ways in which the traditional first-year course or upper level tort-related courses can be modified in ways that take account of these changes. It also explored ways in which legal instruction will continue to evolve away from a focus on case law in order to enable students to develop the professional competencies called for in the current legal environment.<br />...<br /><br />Upcoming Events at Valparaiso Law<br /><br />April 7-10: Moot Court and International Moot Court tryouts<br />April 9: National Lawyers Guild meeting<br />April 10: Career Planning Center Atrium Day & Monsanto Lecture<br />April 11: Military & Veterans Law Student Association Student Veterans Conference & Latino Law Student Association Fiesta del Sol<br />April 14: Amnesty International Lecture<br />April 17: Christian Legal Society Passover Dinner<br />April 21-30: 1L Oral Arguments<br />April 24: Law Review Banquet<br />April 25: Environmental Law Society Arbor Day Tree Giveaway, Admitted Student Open House, & 3L Cane Walk<br />April 29: Last day of classes<br />May 1: Final examinations begin<br />May 17: Champagne Reception for May graduates<br />May 18: Graduation<br />May 19: Summer classes begin<br />June 25: Cambridge/London Study Abroad Program beginsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-64386843069960628942014-04-13T05:56:44.110-06:002014-04-13T05:56:44.110-06:00Subject: Vermont Law
THINKING OF LAW SCHOOL?
THIN...Subject: Vermont Law<br /><br />THINKING OF LAW SCHOOL?<br />THINK AGAIN.<br /> <br /><br />Vermont Law is a different kind of law school, in a different kind of place. We are looking for technologists, socially conscious risk-takers, and environmentally minded entrepreneurs with big ideas. We are looking for creative, disruptive change agents who understand that making an impact on the world — in the private, public, or social sector — requires the tools of the -law to get things done. We are looking for pragmatic idealists and advocates who see a law degree as the start not only of a constructive career, but of a meaningful life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-11251399420253411472014-04-13T02:36:41.558-06:002014-04-13T02:36:41.558-06:00"The outcome you are having would be possible..."The outcome you are having would be possible, but highly unusual, for a T5 grad even today. If you got laid off, or no offered after your 2L summer, you could do what you are doing, but you WILL GET HIRED BY A LAW FIRM with a year or two of experience in a practice area that mid-sized or large law firms work in. It may take you a year or 2 1/2 years - the legal job market is weak - but no one from T5 school will be forever a solo, even in this market. You need to tread water by getting experience in a practice area and looking, looking and looking."<br /><br />----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />This is flat-out wrong.<br /><br />Today, in 2014, if you start out small (solo) or doc review from NYU, you're no better off than a standard toileteer. The clock is ticking against you and especially after passing the one-year mark. Today, in 2014, your first job determines your second, etc. And everything is downward pressure, never up. There's a new crop from NYU to compete with after a year's time. The person left behind from the prior year has only the stigma of solo practice or, God Forbid, doc review. No firm wants any of that. Not one. Nor government, etc. Again, there's always a new crop. Once you are left behind at the races today, in 2014, the odds are 95-5 you'll ever catch up.<br /><br />So, that $250k paid to NYU wasn't worth more than a toileteer's degree. Today, in 2014, people from even the top schools, including NYU and Michigan, are being left behind. These people either stay solo or latch on to small firms where they toil in obscurity with their supposedly gold-plated degree. Or, they leave law. In any case, they are usually never heard from again. Think carefully on even top law schools unless you can go free and have solid connections.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-22470932644331810382014-04-12T22:17:24.308-06:002014-04-12T22:17:24.308-06:00The poster at 6:07 PM is correct in that this gene...The poster at 6:07 PM is correct in that this generation is not the first to be scammed by law schools. However, I am hoping that this generation will be the last. And with dropping enrollment, it may very well be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-36136462775733071392014-04-12T19:47:39.238-06:002014-04-12T19:47:39.238-06:00There are two issues here: (1) the legal job marke...There are two issues here: (1) the legal job market, and (2) the debt.<br /><br />The real scam occurred when tuition went through the roof and the average student now graduates law school with $150K in debt. In the past, if you couldn't get a legal job, there were still other options because you weren't in indentured servitude.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-91999292740427038132014-04-12T19:44:29.618-06:002014-04-12T19:44:29.618-06:00When did you graduate?When did you graduate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-68625037952160883832014-04-12T19:23:23.298-06:002014-04-12T19:23:23.298-06:00No one in my class at a T5 had a paid clerkship th...No one in my class at a T5 had a paid clerkship their first summer, at least no one I knew.<br /><br />Maybe at a law school rated 30 the job market was a little better in the 1980s than now. <br /><br />At the lower tier schools, there were surely very limited employment opportunities in my time. I never ran into grads of the lowest tier law schools in my area - ever. Some of the other schools - below 30 - placed many lawyers, but also did not place many lawyers. I don't know what the placement was back then for a school ranked at 30. For the class of 2013, it was about 50%. It is not clear that placement rate was 100% at that school in the mid-1980s.<br /><br />I think it is harder now, no question. But it was never easy from a school ranked below 30 or so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-53253114867567635252014-04-12T19:07:02.911-06:002014-04-12T19:07:02.911-06:00There is a mistaken impression here that law was n...There is a mistaken impression here that law was not a risky proposition in the past. That lawyers from lower and less than top-ranked schools all got jobs as lawyers and worked as long as they wanted, and that the current generation of lawyers and law students was the first to be scammed. <br /><br />This is mostly untrue. Graduates of low ranked law schools could never find work. Some worked a s paralegals and some not at all, even years ago. Large and mid-sized law firms employed mostly graduates of top schools, even years ago. A few graduates of less than top schools got good jobs in private practice and a few more in house. However, the low ranked schools supplied few of these graduates. They were the exception, not the rule. Graduates of middling law schools often could not find work, even years ago. <br /><br />This generation was not the first to be scammed by law schools. It was simply the first to be able to tell their story of scamming on the internet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-67001796214600695102014-04-12T18:43:38.396-06:002014-04-12T18:43:38.396-06:009:14 I would have dropped out after the first sem...9:14 I would have dropped out after the first semester of 2L if I had not found a summer job (mine was in big law) during that first semester. Costs were much lower then. My parents paid, and paying medical school would not have been an issue. It was not that expensive back then. <br /><br />As someone from a T5 law school, I had the option for medical school. Most people in the T30 law schools may have an option for medical school. <br /><br />The point is to cut your losses. Why finish a degree that is not going to get you a decent job? Chuck it. Sure you have some debt after a year plus of law school, but it is better to cut your losses half way through. <br /><br />Work at retail and volunteer at a hospital, school or in a tech capacity somewhere if you can get it. Take a relevant class at a community college for peanuts. Earn some money in retail and look for a better job at the same time. Move in with your parents to save living expenses. Look for a career in a sector with more options - education, healthcare, tech.<br /><br />Yes, you have $75,000+ of debt from that one plus year of law school, but it is not as bad as going forward with a lost cause of a career.<br /><br />Honestly, I wish law school had not worked out for me. Turned out to be the wrong career for many reasons, but mostly because the experienced job market for lawyers and the job stability for lawyers are both awful today. You have to be the most likable person in your class to work long-term or you have to be a business producer to work long term as a lawyer today. Not good for most people and terrible for me.<br /><br />But I had 30+ good years in law, and have a job as a lawyer now. <br /><br />In healthcare or even education, I would have had more of the job stability I wish I had and would have been able to work until I wanted to retire - -something most lawyers today cannot do. I also would not have had a desk job - what I have been stuck in for many years.<br /><br />My job could end tomorrow, and I may have great difficulty getting another one. That is the nature of law today.<br /><br />You should have no qualms about chucking law school if you are not going to get a good job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-70277127042303838822014-04-12T16:41:36.554-06:002014-04-12T16:41:36.554-06:00I went to law school in the mid-80s at a (what was...I went to law school in the mid-80s at a (what was then) T30. Yes, it was different. You maintain that the placement numbers were not better years ago. Yes, they were. First of all, everyone I knew got a summer paid clerkship first and second summers. The word "intern" was never used to describe any legal work. Secondly, there were plenty of government jobs for law grads who failed to get a job with a firm. A government job was seen as a conciliation prize. Now, everyone wants a government job. Also, and actually more important, the mean age of practicing lawyers was much younger. Now, the profession is top heavy with too many overpaid partners. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-44375039064422520052014-04-12T15:52:13.884-06:002014-04-12T15:52:13.884-06:00Please explain what you were thinking when you wen...Please explain what you were thinking when you went through law school. What types of jobs was the class ahead of you at law school getting? Did you have a paid summer job after 2L year? What made you think law school was a good choice for you if the answers to these questions are negative?<br /><br />Did you notice how much you were borrowing to attend law school? Did you ever think about whether, when and how you would repay it? Did you calculate the monthly cost of repayment while you were piling on the debt, assuming you took on debt? <br /><br />The question is what you were thinking about in terms of debt and your likely job options before and during law school? Honestly, if you thought about big law, was that warranted based on what was going on with the class above you at your law school?<br /><br />As a baby boomer many years ago at a top school, fully paid for, low tuition, pretty full employment in good jobs for my law school, none of the pitfalls of law school were obvious to me, at least while attending law school. That is not to say it was a good decision attend - it wasn't for me.<br /><br />I want to know why people with bad outcomes in terms of debt and/ or likely job placement are putting themselves through this law school fiasco without stopping themselves before they get under water in debt with no employment options to pay the debt off.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-56039753153973670282014-04-12T14:43:07.624-06:002014-04-12T14:43:07.624-06:00The point is that people ought to be able to notic...The point is that people ought to be able to notice the hyper-saturated legal job market while they are in law school. Even without placement statistics, you ought to be able to find out if those ahead of you in law school are getting jobs and what kind of jobs they are getting. You ought to act (i.e., drop out) on the basis of those observations and your chances of making the law degree work for you. <br /><br />Most of the schools listed a few comments above were very risky in the days of the boomers. If you are not going to a T5, you are taking a big risk going to law school. You were always taking a big risk at those schools, even in my parents' time. NYU, number 6, was not ever and still is not a safe bet if you want to be employed. Sure, many graduates are very successful, but many are also unemployed or underemployed.<br /><br />My parents paid for law school at a time when tuition was lower and money was not an issue for us. If you are paying your own way, the high cost should be a huge deterrent, especially for a law school not in the T5. The employment options are a bigger issue. If you have no employment options that make good use of your law degree after graduation or have to be a solo, you have made a mistake attending, even with a full scholarship. There is an opportunity cost in not doing something else with a higher chance of making a good living.<br /><br />It is silly to think that the placement numbers outside the T5 were that much better years ago. They weren't. Some schools have ballooned in class size (Columbia for example from 275 a class years ago to 460 per class a couple of years ago, accounting for their failure to place a large number of their graduates and declining admissions standards now.) There was no internet for people to complain to - that is another big difference.<br /><br />Honestly, the baby boomers in good legal jobs are the 10%- the few survivors. They are not the majority of baby boomer lawyers, but rather the few big winners. Hate them if you want. The truth is that anyone younger who is a lawyer should aspire to be as successful career-wise as the survivors you hate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-13869682040085422312014-04-12T11:59:27.157-06:002014-04-12T11:59:27.157-06:00"The only difference between you and the boom..."The only difference between you and the boomers may be unrealistic expectations."<br /><br />No, that's not the difference. The differences are <br /><br />1) Tuition that is typically 3 to 5 times higher than it was in, say 1980, even after adjusting for inflation<br /><br />2) A hyper-saturated, as opposed to saturated, job market (Law schools have always produced more lawyers than needed)<br /><br />3) NON-DISCHARGEABLE DEBT that has destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives.<br /><br />And it is these 3 differences (especially No 3) that have turned law school from a possibly wasted 3 years into a life-destroying experience for hundreds of thousands of people.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com