tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post1861653625388991805..comments2024-03-28T10:56:31.720-06:00Comments on Outside the Law School Scam: The Legal Hiring Landscape Leaves Something to be DesiredUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-58182051738964392002019-03-13T10:15:37.707-06:002019-03-13T10:15:37.707-06:00Sound points or not Old Guy, 2:41 comes across as ...Sound points or not Old Guy, 2:41 comes across as an ahole. He is not an outlier. He is typical for many law students and lawyers. That to me is the best reason for avoiding law school or especially avoiding working in the legal field. We have only one life to live. Do we want to spend it working for or with these kinds of miserable people? People like 2:41 are the type of people who suck the joy out of life. In the end, I suppose it really depends on a person's personality. If they find law or law school interesting and can tune out the many 2:41s out there, then perhaps they will lead a happy life. But if they end up working for a 2:41, or dealing with 2:41s as an inherent part of their career, I wonder if it is worth it. Why there are so many 2:41s in the law is anyone's guess. Born that way or created? who know, but they are more ubiquitous in law than any other field is my guess.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-57212547553553374482019-03-12T15:12:30.511-06:002019-03-12T15:12:30.511-06:00On the contrary, 2:41 made sound points. Perhaps t...On the contrary, 2:41 made sound points. Perhaps that is why you chose to wage a personal attack rather than speaking to substance.Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-58506537033397225442019-03-12T12:44:40.368-06:002019-03-12T12:44:40.368-06:00LOL. 241 is truly the best reason to avoid law sc...LOL. 241 is truly the best reason to avoid law school. Small-minded, angry, aholish. Like I said, 10% of Lawyers are sociopaths and a much higher percentage are jerks. Can anybody imagine working for 241? 241 is the type of guy who when he responds to a post he doesn't agree with will say to himself, "how would a dick respond"? attributes to Bill Maher. LOLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-89462699219065581472019-03-12T05:28:14.746-06:002019-03-12T05:28:14.746-06:0011:44 sounds like the same one law was a good esca...11:44 sounds like the same one law was a good escape from an accounting career looking at numb3r5 all day. This despite accounting, when fully realized requires an undergrad degree, an MS and passage of a certification exam.Maybe our man of letters is math phobic. <br /><br />As to his newly enlightened CPA pal, he sounds semi retired already. As a night student how much fun would it be if he had a job where he had to get a report into the boss by 5, then rush to class by 6. Sit in class to 10 for 4 nights a week, be back to work at 7 or 8 and then spend the whole weekend trying to get all the case readings done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-54442132685547469962019-03-12T01:05:39.079-06:002019-03-12T01:05:39.079-06:00Go to law schoool all, prestige trumps all.
https...Go to law schoool all, prestige trumps all.<br /><br />https://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-poop-patrol-employees-make-184000-a-year-2018-8Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-8981127261493144162019-03-11T19:48:19.205-06:002019-03-11T19:48:19.205-06:00An Administrative Assistant without a college degr...An Administrative Assistant without a college degree, employed by the federal government is better off, financially and health wise, that the college grad in the private sector laid off at 50, since the federal AA will enjoy a generous retirement and health coverage for life. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-46655238723257253642019-03-11T17:52:59.184-06:002019-03-11T17:52:59.184-06:00Rofl at looking down at people without college deg...Rofl at looking down at people without college degrees. Look at what port authority cops make. I’d trade places with them in hard beat lol (I know a guy raking in 15k a month in pension plus healthcare: 47 years old. I’m sure he’s miserable that he doesn’t know about Plato and Motzart lol).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-69114435949717580252019-03-11T14:41:51.481-06:002019-03-11T14:41:51.481-06:00He's learned not to use ellipsis as frequently...He's learned not to use ellipsis as frequently, but 11:44a is clearly the same troll who posts here again and again and again, with some small variations on the same theme: go to law school, it's a great idea. So let's look at his latest post, riddled with bad intent and half-truths, designed to scam the gullible(as if the scam schools need the help).<br />1. This blog, to its everlasting credit, operates in the real world, and warns repeatedly to not go to law school because it's a bad investment. So doofus sets up a straw man, calls that advice "sour grapes" then admit getting a law degree may not have "economic" value...hello, spending 250K+ for a degree with no economic value is just stupid-unless you are that guy going to night school for the hell of it. Hope he enjoys it, but again you miss the point-if he's rich enough to enroll in law school for purely intellectual reasons, that's called a hobby, not a profession.<br />2. What is your business, pray tell, that you hire so many college grads? It clearly has nothing to do with the law.<br />3. While he may have "learned a hell of a lot" he didn't learn that you don't capitalize college and law school in the middle of a sentence.<br />4. The rest-college is wonderful, with many rainbows and non-stop sunshine, where the Academy meets every day-and you're a member, debating Kant and working calculus with Decarte and-baloney. It's clear he's never spent a day in an American university, at least not since 1950. Welcome to the world of 500 seat lecture halls, surly TAs, and professors who don't want to teach or even acknowledge undergrads.<br />His posts are toxic, and if anyone followed his advice they would stand a good chance of being financially ruined forever. Let him start his own blog, dedicated to terrible advice to all. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-31863511459593783322019-03-11T13:44:14.274-06:002019-03-11T13:44:14.274-06:00The law degree is not useful for employment outsid...The law degree is not useful <i>for employment</i> outside the practice of law. If people want to spend $300k on law school just for their personal enrichment, let them—provided that they spend their own money, rather than taking out student loans guaranteed by the government.<br /><br />I certainly would not assume anything negative about the intelligence or commitment of a person who had no college degree. <br /><br />I don't see much philosophical, artistic, or intellectual sophistication in most college graduates, including those who went on to law school.<br /><br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-17509735619349953022019-03-11T11:44:08.869-06:002019-03-11T11:44:08.869-06:00"""The big scam within the scam tha..."""The big scam within the scam that demands immediate attention for being discredited is the assertion that the law degree is useful in itself, other than for the practice of law.""" sour grapes talking. Maybe a law degree is not worth it due to economic return, but to claim it does not teach people useful information is baseless. This is a complex world, and understanding the rules can be very helpful whether or not you ever monetize the information or not. I learned a hell of a lot in both College and Law school, and although College is not for everyone, it is also true that having a college degree increases greatly your chances of getting a decent paying Job in the service industry rather than stocking boxes at Walmart. I automatically assume people without college degrees are generally not the smartest nor able to commit themselves to something. And all sorts of studies show how much better off people are when they have college degrees, including health wise and economically. And the employees I hired who had at least associate degrees or higher were worlds better than high school graduates who never went further. If somebody has an average low IQ, say 100 or less, then avoiding college may be for the best. But if anybody is bright in the least, college is wonderful, it exposes people to ideas and philosophy and art they may never have known about or thought about and it allows them to satiate their intellectual curiosity. If they don't have intellectual curiosity, then they are not bright to begin with so should avoid college. I was just talking to a good friend of mine who is 67, a successful cpa/tax adviser, going to night law school right now who absolutely loves the law by the way. He may never practice, or he may when he is 70, but he finds it incredibly interesting, which may not be all that surprising given he worked with financial records and taxes most of his life. In the FWIW department.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-89942023684678048602019-03-11T06:24:18.723-06:002019-03-11T06:24:18.723-06:00In 1985 I was sitting in the auditorium of McCorma...In 1985 I was sitting in the auditorium of McCormack Place in Chicago waiting to be sworn in to the bar with all applicants from the Cook County appellate district. Many, employed or not, had relatives there to witness what for me was just wasted billable time I'd have to make up on my own time. I overheard the father of one applicant saying that at that moment that room probably contained the thickest concentration of unemployment in the whole country. Toilets were toilets, even back then. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-51048008957122102782019-03-10T00:06:36.913-07:002019-03-10T00:06:36.913-07:00It is an undergraduate degree in some parts of the...It is an undergraduate degree in some parts of the world. Often a further qualification is needed for access to the bar.Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-89638969079117303632019-03-09T20:01:21.391-07:002019-03-09T20:01:21.391-07:00Why can't 'Law' just be an undergradua...Why can't 'Law' just be an undergraduate degree? The way fields like accounting and engineering are. Then those who are so inclined could pursue a graduate course in Law - the JD let's say - for purposes of professional qualification. Why wouldn't an undergrad degree in Bachelor of Law be as valuable as one of the popular ones today such as gender studies?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-2222233255234651952019-03-09T09:13:26.707-07:002019-03-09T09:13:26.707-07:00Both 3:35 and 5:46 are absolutely correct; I have ...Both 3:35 and 5:46 are absolutely correct; I have given up giving advice to 0Ls and their parents, having been more than once been accused of being too "negative". I'll just point them to these two entries since they succinctly describe the scam. <br />And as 3:23 points out, there are other avenues to solid employment, but ego often gets in the way.<br />Here's an example: a cousin of mine dropped out of HS, eventually got a GED. Decided to join the Army, was trained as a nurse aid(a three or four month course if I recall). That's a tough, thankless job, but did it well, so Army offered to educate as LPN; agreed and got LPN. Left Army after enlistment expired, got civilian job as LPN; after a couple of years of doing well, hospital employer offered to pay for RN; agreed and took courses, got RN. After a few more years, employer agreed to pay for BSN, agreed and took courses. So now my cousin is BSN charge nurse; made every stop along the way, was a lot of hard work with job and classes, but was hard worker and paid for none-as in zero-of education and is now licenses BSN.<br /><br />Is this for everybody? No, but has a solid middle class life, family, and respected profession. So next time anyone asks what else to do...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-21790161785461283142019-03-09T07:44:48.221-07:002019-03-09T07:44:48.221-07:00I agree with 3:35. The notion that everyone should...I agree with 3:35. The notion that everyone should get a bachelor's degree became standard dogma in the late 1980s, roughly when Old Guy was in university. Until the early 1980s or so, abundant well-paying blue-collar jobs were available, at least for able-bodied men (women were ordinarily relegated to pink ghettoes such as typing pools), often without even the need for a high-school diploma. For a few years in the mid-1980s, "finish high school" became dogma; then quite quickly "go to college". Soon enough almost everyone who could fog a mirror was pursuing a bachelor's degree.<br /><br />Now that degrees are handed out in boxes of Cracker Jack to people who don't even know all of the letters of the alphabet, everyone knows that they mean next to nothing. (Eighty percent of the students enrolling at CUNY need remedial classes, and half of those still need remedial classes after a year.) But of course the ejookayshun scam would never impose standards in order to keep people out who have no business seeking a degree. Instead, the ejookayshun scam promotes <i>additional</i> degrees. And law now has become something "for everyone", as scam-dean Frank Wu wrote in <i>You Ass News</i> ten years ago. Can't put a sentence together? Can't read? Don't let that stop you from becoming a rich hot-shot litigator! Such is the idiocy peddled by the law-school scam, using billions per year in public funds.<br />Old Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02399124824529778710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-32006899329760065332019-03-08T21:15:15.422-07:002019-03-08T21:15:15.422-07:00Municipal employment in politically protected esse...Municipal employment in politically protected essential services is the path to the middle class: teaching, police, fireman, and the unionized trades in the rich blue cities and suburbs.<br /><br />That’s the answer. If you cannot pass the exams and obtain the requisite qualifications to get one of those jobs, you will not make it in law. If you fail in getting one of those jobs, your life is not ruined.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-12016188202507581372019-03-08T17:46:04.115-07:002019-03-08T17:46:04.115-07:00The big scam within the scam that demands immediat...The big scam within the scam that demands immediate attention for being discredited is the assertion that the law degree is useful in itself, other than for the practice of law. The lower tiers profit immensely from this false belief. I believe it is one of the most, if not the most pernicious lies being propagated about law school. 'A JD is like an MBA only better.' 'A JD opens doors to other fields.' 'They can never take it away from you.' 'It hones critical reasoning skills useful for a lifetime.' 'It shows others you are smart.' 'It proves that you fought the good fight.' These lies not only help to entice new law school enrollees, but encourages others to stay in school to finish out the lost cause to the bitter end. <br /><br />It would be interesting to see the list of claims in entirety as to what a law degree can do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-30844478578060374892019-03-08T15:35:12.147-07:002019-03-08T15:35:12.147-07:00The real problem, that no one wants to admit, is t...The real problem, that no one wants to admit, is this: we live in a nation that pretends that just about everyone who graduates from high school should go to college. The government subsidizes college with student loans, and gullible young high school students are told that college is just one big party, an endless spring break vacation with beer and sex on tap, varsity football and basketball, and all around a blast. When some fraction of the hapless dolts who stumbled onto campus get a degree, often 5 or 6 or 7 years after starting, they find out that their degree qualifies them to deliver pizza or work at McDonald’s. . . .so, they decide, more education must be the answer, and even Law School has to be easier than working, so off they go. People should not be surprised at all about the low bar pass rates. Frankly, I think an awful lot of modern law students simply are not very smart. I encounter law students, their parents, and recent grads. They all say the same thing: some law school grads start out at big firms making over 150K a year, so it’s a great bet! I look them right in the eye and say “You do understand that 9 out of 10 students won’t even be granted an interview for one of those positions, let alone a job, don’t you?” They get this deer-in-the-headlights look, and mumble something unintelligible under their breath. I never even get to the follow up question “You do know that most first-year associates are out of their job within 4 years of starting, don’t you?” I have read that associates only last 3 years at Cravath, on average, and those 3 years are quite miserable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-3147712929777458062019-03-08T15:23:41.364-07:002019-03-08T15:23:41.364-07:00What to do instead of Law School? A student who s...What to do instead of Law School? A student who studies Nursing for two years will have multiple job offers and good salaries and benefits. More education will be subsidized by your employer, and I personally know a nurse working in an neo-natal intensive care unit making over six figures. Two years studying to be an X-ray Technician gets some fairly unintelligent people good jobs that over time grow to six figures without additional education. I once represented a Dental Hygenist whose two year Associate’s Degree led to a job making over 60,000 per year. Electricians, auto mechanics, computer programmers and many other people make excellent salaries with minimal education. The people applying Law School made a big mistake by getting a worthless 4 year degree in Political Science or some other garbage liberal arts degree. They have too much pride, and too little intelligence, to have gotten an Associate’s degree in something practical and spent the next two years working. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-15907979405600141592019-03-08T14:46:37.909-07:002019-03-08T14:46:37.909-07:00Well, I suppose being debt free without a Job is s...Well, I suppose being debt free without a Job is superior to being loaded down with debt without a job. Either way, the person still doesn't have a job and ends up living in mom's basement, having very little control over their own lives in those situations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-69226169169954291082019-03-08T11:21:36.821-07:002019-03-08T11:21:36.821-07:00And 11:48 also supplies objective data regarding h...And 11:48 also supplies objective data regarding how bad law is as a job. Since the great recession, the economy as a whole grew, while the legal economy shrank.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-3789887565807068102019-03-08T11:18:45.110-07:002019-03-08T11:18:45.110-07:00I graduated ten years earlier, and that was my exp...I graduated ten years earlier, and that was my experience, too. The only difference-a small one-was that there was even less objective factual information available regarding jobs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-32392161602079032982019-03-08T10:22:29.501-07:002019-03-08T10:22:29.501-07:00As stated already in the sub-posts above, as well ...As stated already in the sub-posts above, as well as prior OTLSS OPs, we here at OTLSS don't have a recommendation for what to do "instead" of law school.<br /><br />I wish we did, as we would trumpet it from the rooftops. Clearly the markets change and continue to change, so to be fair there is always risk and variability.<br /><br />That said, (1) many so-called advantages of law school and a legal career have been debunked, so avoiding law school is "low risk," and (2) as shown by 11:48 AM above, there are promising ideas that can be found without too much legwork. While we do not claim these ideas are a panacea, they are certainly worth investigating further with serious considerations as alternatives.dupednontraditionalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04170022654810216357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-28032320869585053272019-03-07T19:15:43.051-07:002019-03-07T19:15:43.051-07:00Mar 05 at 11:38 am - You also summed up my experie...Mar 05 at 11:38 am - You also summed up my experience in 1995-96.Old Ruster from JDJunkyardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01223553546778880542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3660083024919144793.post-74645625300570587062019-03-07T17:59:43.336-07:002019-03-07T17:59:43.336-07:00The problem with employment has been around for de...The problem with employment has been around for decades with the toilets, even before anyone knew they were toileted tiered.<br /><br />When I was attending my toilet, one of the profs wrote an article circa 1990 for the law student newspaper. He gave advice on how to get a attorney job and what to expect if you got one.<br /><br />To get one he said to graduate in the top 25% of this school. Top 10% would be better, but below 25% you may as well forget it.<br /><br />If you get a associate position with a firm, he said to expect to much more challenging than law school. He compared the class load to case load. If you were taking 6 classes in law school that would be the equivalent to 6 cases as a lawyer. But most lawyers are juggling perhaps 30 cases at any one time.<br /><br />His first point made sense to me, I knew the school sucked. The second I thought was a bit of a stretch, since a lawyer has a little more autonomy than a law student, even as an associate.<br /><br />Anyway, I thought when I read it, this will go over well with the Trustees. But that was about the end of his teaching career. He had started writing mystery novels author and his writing career was starting to take off and he resigned his teaching position shortly after the article was published to spend all his time on his writing career. I think he had the whole thing planned out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com